In truth Americans got themselves strangled in the Western Europe with a couple of things; bombing cities with strategical bombardments (damaging infrastructure and slowing down their own advance because of heavy equipment needed to move the rubble in order to progress), not enough supplies for an entire invasion forces. You need to remember that the Germans couldn't push the US Army out mostly because they lacked men to do so (both on the ground as well as in terms of air superiority) and in this scenario that won't be the case. Your biggest liability is the supply chain - it must be capable of feeding enough men to keep an organized and stable front, because the Axis will come once it realizes it has an enemy units on its shores and unless you can somehow cut off their own lines of supply you have to keep multiple smaller armies while facing the giant; a hard task.
All excellent points
Holy.Death. Considering all the complaining I see in the main HOI3 game forum regarding supply, I might argue that the game is STILL not strict enough at modeling the incredible logistical obstacle of supplying and feeding giant modern armies. You might be interested in an article recently shared by
Dewirix (post #2137) in Director's
A Special Providence AAR that goes into excruciating detail regarding the logistical effort of the US military in World War 2. In some cases, these guys were figuring it out as they went...and frequently were unsuccessful. A very interesting read if you have the spare time.
Nitpick: Not quite. Bombing cities didn't slow the advance in France as that much, at least from what I read about. I know in Operation Cobra, they purposely used small 100 pound bombs so as not to create the problem you noted. Now the bombing of railroads in France did hinder the American advance in only that the supply lines had to rely on the trucks. But more seriously, the Americans were moving faster than any of their plans had predicted once they broke out of Normandy. I don't think any other army could move as fast across France as the Americans did.
And then they found themselves over-extended right at the onset of winter...and they suffered pretty severely for it. The ubiquity of motorization in all American formations was a double edged sword. On the one hand, they could move LOTS of men very far and very fast, but on the other hand, the further they traveled from their supply sources the more effort was generated to keep them supplied (increasing almost exponentially as they traveled further eastwards). Naturally this was further exacerbated by the fact that they relied almost exclusively on all supplies being trucked forward which, of course, expended even MORE fuel (certainly more than rail transport would have used). And beyond just the day-to-day supply needs of food, fuel and ammunition, there was the problem of manpower losses and their replacement. During the Battle of the Bulge, this weakness was painfully exposed.
That's mostly due to them owning an almost entirely mechanized force, and other than Germans also the fuel to support these trucks/tanks/halftracks.
If you got complete air superiority (and that's what real allies had since ~1942), combined with the industrial base of the US, you could supply an nearly unlimited amount of troops (in rl not ingame).
and yet they couldn't supply themselves efficiently...or at least were BARELY able to do so. I really wonder if they could have possibly supplied any more units in Europe than they fielded....I'm inclined to say no they couldn't have.
Heh, in-game you really need to get to absurd levels to strain the US fuel and supply capacity. I think the only time I noticed it was a late game ('45 or later) situation where I had 200+ planes, 200+ naval units not including TPs, and at the minimum a fully MOT/MECH/Armored Great Army. THEN you start to see strain, but its usually just a matter of not enough ports to ship the needed supplies/fuel as opposed to actual strain. However, invading the entire French coastline + the Lowlands simultaneously was worth it (I had enough TPs to load the entire American armed forces up and ship 'em over, oh yeah).
And there it is in black and white...THE fear I have as I prepare for my Overlord. I have yet to do this with the Americans in HOI3 and quite honestly I'm expecting the worst (in terms of keeping all my units reliably supplied). I'm anticipating throwing somewhere between 75 and 100 divisions into Europe, nearly half of which will be supply/fuel gobbling Mech/Armor formations. For this reason alone I'm shying off of taking a heavy/numerous support brigade approach to try and conserve supply bandwidth. I'm curious to understand, Lord Curlyton, at what difficulty you're normally playing and how difficulty does (or does not) influence supply issues.
Well, there is a limit to the number of troops they could support. Partly why there was only about 90 divisions(Though, considering the amount of inorganic units attached, it could be considered more like 120). The Port Supply limit does have a real life basis after all. That said, trucks was a major thing in the US Army favor as it help made them independent of the rail system.
From my viewpoint, exactly right.
One major constraint on US supply capacity in Europe was the damaged or blocked condition of the ports they captured. Despite improvisations, it took time to open up the ports and restore handling capacity. The destruction of the French railroads was a calculated risk. It kept the Germans from using them - a major concern before D-Day when no-one knew if the invasion could be sustained against counter-attacks - and later kept the Allies from using them. As noted by HolySeraph, the Allies didn't anticipate that Cobra would break the entire front open and cause the Germans to retreat all the way to the Rhine. They also did not predict how long it would take to open Antwerp to shipping.
The Allies were able to use truck-borne supply (Red Ball Express - comin' through!) but then had to balance a finite (but large) amount of trucks against the gas the trucks used (a lot), the loss of mobility for truck-mobile units (slowing the advance) and the need to build up massive forward supply dumps. The Rhine was probably farther than the Allies could really go, at least on a broad front, and that's why they had to pause there and give the German armies in the West time to recover.
From the Wikipedia article: "The system lasted only three months, from August 25 to November 16, 1944, when the port facilities at Antwerp, Belgium were opened, some French rail lines were repaired, and portable gasoline pipelines were deployed."
And, "After the breakout and the race to the Seine River, there were 28 Allied divisions in the field. For offensive operations, each division would consume about 750 tons of supplies per day, a total of about 20,000 tons. At its peak the Red Ball Express operated 5,958 vehicles and carried about 12,500 tons of supplies per day."
I think you are going to need more than 28 divisions.
Amen brother. I would get squashed like a bug if I only went in with 28 divisions...at least that's my take. I'm actually really enjoying not knowing what to expect here. In some perverse way it's adding a layer of realism to the experience. In many of my other HOI experiences I've played, played again and re-played to the point where i know exactly what to expect...here I don't have the benefit of that....and neither did Eisenhower in RL. Also, I love these expert testimony kinds of comments and am frequently frustrated I can't find the time I'd like to go and read more about it. So thank you for those...your comments are more than welcome here.
Fantastic update !!!
Its the little details such as the aviation careers poster (it looks like something from the fallout universe) that elevate this AAR from great to awesome !
haha! I'm glad you noticed that! Sometimes those little things slip through (or at least I think they slip through because nobody comments on them). Thanks
red_KLG
Another great update, robw. The 4-CV strategy in the Pacific seems to be working, even though some more battles will be needed to prove that. At the very least, the upgraded CAGs will hammer the Japs.
You might want to reconsider Gen. Groves' appointment to the Manhattan Project. "Silence means security", but the General seems to be unaware of this, saying "atom bomb" in public and all...
There actually was another recent major CV vs CV battle which yielded almost identical results (and why I didn't bother showing it). That's why FDR reported sinking 4 Japanese carriers at the end of the last update. I'll burn myself out if I attempt to depict every single battle...haha (not to mention that might get a little tedious for readers). I'm still not clobbering with my CVs the way I'd like to...so I'll just trudge forward and continue to improve techs.
But yeah, General Groves and his big mouth huh? Interestingly, I found that image in a blog. The comic never overtly uses Groves' name, although it seemed very clear to me that's who they were trying to depict. Finding it created an opportunity I couldn't pass up. Had he been that brash IRL, I doubt he would have lasted long in his role. Can you imagine bearing the burden of such a HUGE secret for so long? I'd be the worst person for such a job. Apparently there were only 10 people who had enough actual overall knowledge to understand the magnitude of what was being undertaken...everyone else only had limited, compartmental knowledge....and STILL the Russians found out about it.