Amenities

[Less2]

Uhh, what? Amenities are expensive even in the mid game. The cost of normal pop upkeep is roughly evenly split between food and amenities, and the cost of food decreases more quickly over time because it gets many production bonuses while amenities gets very few. By the midgame its usually the amenities that cost the most compared to other upkeep costs. This goes double for Hive minds and Machine Empires.

The only thing that truly trivializes amenities is the free slavery/robot servitude jobs that produce amenities without using a job slot and with (almost) free real estate. But this is specifically a late game solution since its a pop-intensive solution that will only handicap you in the early to mid game when per-pop efficiency is the most important metric.

 

[eagletrekkie]

I'm not going to lie, especially with the presence of housing as a local upkeep, amenities feel like upkeep for the sake of upkeep and preventing snowballing, and it's not a fun mechanic.

 

[kabill]

I'm not going to lie, especially with the presence of housing as a local upkeep, amenities feel like upkeep for the sake of upkeep and preventing snowballing, and it's not a fun mechanic.

That's kind of what I was going to reply to permeakra about above. If amenities only matter to large planets, then they are basically just another tax on growth (and there are plenty of taxes already). It's why I think amenities are better off reinvented - yes, as a tax - but a tax that can be paid in various different ways netting some other benefit in the process. That way, they put restrictions on growth but in a manner that shapes your grwoth rather than just dragging numbers down.

(This is actually kind of how housing already works. You pay the housing cost by building districts, but districts net jobs in return. It's a tax, but you get something for paying the tax and can - within limits - shape what those somethings are).

 

[permeakra]

It's why I think amenities are better off reinvented - yes, as a tax - but a tax that can be paid in various different ways netting some other benefit in the process. That way, they put restrictions on growth but in a manner that shapes your grwoth rather than just dragging numbers down.

Excuse me, but do you mind to do your homework first?
There ARE several ways to pay for amenities, depending on the government and civics. Domestic servitude, buildings (both with jobs and passive), clerk jobs in buildings and districts, and special planets.

And no, I'm quite OK with amenities being planet-bound. I actually want more planet-bound and/or system bound resources and a meaningful logistic model. Trade routes are a good start, but only that: a start.

 

[AlanC9]

Uhh, what? Amenities are expensive even in the mid game. The cost of normal pop upkeep is roughly evenly split between food and amenities, and the cost of food decreases more quickly over time because it gets many production bonuses while amenities gets very few. By the midgame its usually the amenities that cost the most compared to other upkeep costs. This goes double for Hive minds and Machine Empires.

The only thing that truly trivializes amenities is the free slavery/robot servitude jobs that produce amenities without using a job slot and with (almost) free real estate. But this is specifically a late game solution since its a pop-intensive solution that will only handicap you in the early to mid game when per-pop efficiency is the most important metric.

People generally think of something as free when it comes without explicitly paying for it. If you get all the amenities you want without ever thinking about them, because they come from building stuff you built for other purposes, are you paying for the amenities? Or are they just kinda there?

 

[The Boz]

Meaning the Stability red, not the Amenities red, right?

Amenities red. You would actually have to intentionally build a planet to see red amenities.

 

[AlanC9]

Amenities red. You would actually have to intentionally build a planet to see red amenities.

Huh? I get red amenities all the time. IDGAF because stability's still running in the 55%-70% range.

Maybe you build more housing than I do. I generally don't prioritize city districts, since clerks are a wash if not outright negative and I'd rather get something I can use over ameliorating a penalty that isn't enough to notice yet.

 

[Sinister2202]

I was hoping that I could somehow utilize all these hundreds of excess amenities that I have. Maybe bring down the consumer goods upkeep a little bit? I don't know/

 

[The Boz]

In any world: Gene clinic, unity building at leisure (5th+ slot)
Resource world: Luxury housing (has amenities built in)
Refinement world: City district (has amenity jobs built in)
World has green amenities if race has no amenities malus.

 

[Less2]

People generally think of something as free when it comes without explicitly paying for it. If you get all the amenities you want without ever thinking about them, because they come from building stuff you built for other purposes, are you paying for the amenities? Or are they just kinda there?

Considering the things that give amenties as an extra are all fairly awful jobs on their own, whoever these "people" are that are getting "free" amenities are in fact really screwing their economy. I expect running mountains of clerks or something?

In any world: Gene clinic, unity building at leisure (5th+ slot)
Resource world: Luxury housing (has amenities built in)
Refinement world: City district (has amenity jobs built in)
World has green amenities if race has no amenities malus.

Base: 5-10
Gene clinic: 10
Unity building: 0 normally, 8 for spiritualists
Luxury Housing: 5

OK, how do you supply amenities for 75-100 pops now? Do you load planets with a dozen luxury housing buildings?

Amenity jobs from cities? You mean clerks? Clerks are awful, you shouldn't run them if at all possible. If you are relying on them you are gimping your economy hard. Those aren't amenity jobs, they are junk jobs that provide almost nothing.

 

[AlanC9]

@ The Boz: So you're only talking about when the worlds are finished? OK, but that doesn't say much about the bulk of the game. You're not building the luxury housing first, right?

 

[AlanC9]

Considering the things that give amenties as an extra are all fairly awful jobs on their own, whoever these "people" are that are getting "free" amenities are in fact really screwing their economy. I expect running mountains of clerks or something?

I thought it was obvious that I was talking about the amenities you get from housing, gene clinics, and maybe unity buildings, plus administrators, science directors, etc. All of that gives free amenities since I'd build them anyway.

Base: 5-10
Gene clinic: 10
Unity building: 0 normally, 8 for spiritualists
Luxury Housing: 5

OK, how do you supply amenities for 75-100 pops now? Do you load planets with a dozen luxury housing buildings?

At that point you'd also get 40 amenities from the System Capital-Complex. More if you've got a Ministry of Production or Research Institute. The clerks from the city districts -- unless you're not building any of those -- should put you into the green.

 

[Less2]

So, lets add up:
10 base
40 system complex.
8 from a Ministry of Production or Research institute (I think)
8 from unity building - only for spiritualists, but good. EDIT: 16 with the 1st upgrade that doesn't require rare crystals.

That's your default "good" buildings that you should be building. From there:

10 gene clinic - arguably a bad building that you shouldn't be building. Simply takes way too long to pay off.
5 per luxury housing - Removes a building spot just for housing. That's a huge cost. Worth paying in some instances, but expensive.
Clerks - Awful job that you should be disabling.

I'll agree that the top amenities producers are in some sense "free", but there is no reasonable argument that the bottom ones are. These are all in fact buildings that aren't pulling their weight.

 

[kabill]

Excuse me, but do you mind to do your homework first?
There ARE several ways to pay for amenities, depending on the government and civics. Domestic servitude, buildings (both with jobs and passive), clerk jobs in buildings and districts, and special planets.

Please do not be aggressive with me. You're more than welcome to disagree with my points - if I'm discussing things here it's in part because I want people to test my ideas - but there is absolutely no need to be obnoxious whilst doing so.

As regards your point: you're right, there is already some of what I'm suggesting. But I don't find it has much emphasis or significance. Capital buildings provide about half the amenities you need at any given planet level anyway (before stupid big planets). Coupled with a clinic, which is generally worth building for the growth bonus alone, and it's not until 30-40 pops you might need to care at all, and more if you have robots, clerks you can't employ elsewhere, +amenity bonuses, or other +amenity jobs/buildings because you wanted whatever else they were giving you but happened also to give some amenities as well.

In other words, even if there are different ways of getting amenities, they mostly don't matter. I don't build a temple because I want amenities; I build a temple because I want unity and it just happens to come with a big amenity bonus. I don't build commercial zones because I want amenities; I build them because I want trade (actually, I build them because I have too many unemployed pops and I need something for them to do. But that's probably not good play; and my point stands in any case). Etc.

I'm not claiming this is ubiquitous, then, but for most of my play in 2.2 amenities have been a consequence but not a cause of my decision making, rendering them fairly redundant. What I was trying to suggest therefore is reversing that relationship, i.e. making amenities something that need to be built around, rather than a happy outcome of other decisions. That - for me, anyway - is what would make them a meaningful part of the game.

 

[AlanC9]

Research Directors give 5 Amenities, not 8.

I don't check you on gene clinics.

Disabling clerks? Well, maybe, but at some point a style becomes too boring to play.

 

[Less2]

As regards your point: you're right, there is already some of what I'm suggesting. But I don't find it has much emphasis or significance. Capital buildings provide about half the amenities you need at any given planet level anyway (before stupid big planets).

Are you only colonizing 100% habitability gaia worlds? Go colonize 0% habitability tombworlds where you need 2 amenities per pop under normal circumstances. You need to produce a lot more.

Coupled with a clinic, which is generally worth building for the growth bonus alone

No. A clinic requires 2 pops to run for +10% pop growth. .3 pop growth per month takes 55.5 years to produce another two pops to replace the ones you invested growing them, and a total of 111 years to pay back their time spent working. Only after 111 years are you actually gaining in production (more, actually, taking into account upkeep). Would you build a building that explicitly stated it would do nothing for 111 years before finally doing something 112 years after building it? I'm guessing most would not.

Research Directors give 5 Amenities, not 8.

I don't check you on gene clinics.

Disabling clerks? Well, maybe, but at some point a style becomes too boring to play.

The game I'm loading up to check has tons of different pops and the building tooltips seem to randomly alternate between telling me what my repugnant pops would make on it and what my charismatic pops would make on it. Some numbers might be a bit off, but the point is you'll nowhere near supply whole worlds with just those producers.

Clerks are just awful. It's too boring to be economically efficient?

 

[AlanC9]

You'll supply whole worlds if you're not disabling the clerks. Or rather, you'll come close enough to supplying the planet that the difference won't be worth noticing. Like I told The Boz, I see red Amenities fairly often in the midgame.

Am I right that we're all in agreement here that Amenities don't actually work? Not worth producing, not worth thinking about?

 

[Less2]

By "not worth producing", you mean "holo-theatres aren't worth building", I assume?

Absolutely not. If you are trying to optimize your planets for maximal research and/or alloy production, not wasting space for stuff like gene clinics or commercial zones, along with colonizing all of those 60% or less habitability worlds, you need plenty of amenities. You need at least holo theatre per planet, sometimes more or upgraded. You can somewhat get around this through slavery and/or robot slavery along with the obvious civic/tradition choices, but not completely.

 

[Bearjuden]

what is left for amenities to abstractly represent that is not covered by these three

Activities. I interpret amenities as access to parks, museums, theaters, and other things you can readily do but not feasibly own.

 

[permeakra]

You'll supply whole worlds if you're not disabling the clerks.

You don't.
A clerk produces 2 amenities and 2 TV. In term of amenities in perfect conditions it can provide for one another pop give or take random perk modifier, but needs food, CG and housing. You might break or end with small positive in specific builds, but in others clerks eat more than they provide.

Am I right that we're all in agreement here that Amenities don't actually work? Not worth producing, not worth thinking about?

I suggest you to try to play a gestalt. They use separate buildings for amenities and their costs are right into your face once you hit 50+ pops. Possibly earlier if you don't take prosperity tradition as your second.

Or, alternatively, turn off guaranteed habitable worlds and see how you are struggling colonizing 20% habitability world.