Amenities

[The Boz]

I'm pretty convinced that amenities are not something the game needs, now that consumer goods are a thing.
Pops consume energy, food, and consumer goods; what is left for amenities to abstractly represent that is not covered by these three? Especially because they're planet-bound, and don't transfer at all to other worlds.
Furthermore, in the early game, any race with an amenities malus will have a deficit. There is no way around this; the penalty is automatic and mandatory, as early game amenity buildings are few, and building space is precious.
Regarless of amenity malus, all planets of all civs are absolutely swimming in amenities after, say, 2260, and the "impact" of amenity surplus or shortage are ~minimal.
Is there an actual argument to keep amenities in the game?

 

[Madzai]

IMO, Amenities aren't working because pops "balance" is off. Balance as Pops per building, amount of Pops per district, their production and all. And it's hard to balance in given numbers like recent nerf to Amenities for GS Empires showed. 5 Amenities per maintenance drone is OP, but 1 per 4 is very bad (partially because of how bonuses to production work). Also, normal Empire have way too many ways to produce Amenities. Also strata i messed up - Pops refuse to lower strata instantly, but worker promoted to ruler perform it's job without any penalty right from the start.

So amenities is a good idea on paper, but poorly executed as some Empire builds have way to many ways to produce them, usually alongside with other useful bonuses.

 

[evilcat]

Consumer goods: if you run out of them, things are going bad
Ametities: if you run out of them, you can keep going for a while, but at some point should do something about it.
Having mix of hard and soft is ok. And there is a potencial to ffset low habitability or gain extra stability on high population planets.

For now just let it be.

 

[beckermt]

Being short on amenities gives massive stability penalties. They're not something you can stock and not something you can buy, which gives them a very different mechanical niche than Consumer Goods.

Early game amenities are easily covered by the Holo-Theater Building or the Gene-Clinic. The penalty is in no way "automatic and mandatory."

 

[The Boz]

Early game amenities are easily covered by the Holo-Theater Building or the Gene-Clinic. The penalty is in no way "automatic and mandatory."

Have you played any -amenities races?

 

[beckermt]

Have you played any -amenities races?

Nope! I'll give it a spin shortly though. I was looking at doing a slavery playthrough and domestic servants should cover it.

 

[HandicapdHippo]

Have you played any -amenities races?

How is that an issue? You have to deal with your choices for negative traits.

 

[The Boz]

Nope! I'll give it a spin shortly though. I was looking at doing a slavery playthrough and domestic servants should cover it.

Try it. You'll see your planets will dip red several times, at times where you have no way of fixing the amenities.

How is that an issue? You have to deal with your choices for negative traits.

You need to devote an entire building (where buildings are a premium) in the early game (but not too early, because you will start off with no options on this front for your first two planets) to fixing the choice, and if you do, you have actually made an error: you fixed a *small* problem with a *big* investment, and the problem absolutely disappears in a few decades, becoming a complete non-factor. Not good design at all.
And then compare them to all the other resources and gauges that govern pop productivity in the game. Energy, food, consumer goods, stability/happiness, habitability, growth... amenities are entirely superfluous.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Have you played any -amenities races?

I have and to compensate you need to adjust by over compensating on specialist jobs like priests, or go heavy on clerks if not. Also make use of the luxury goods decision and over subscribe on consumer goods to make use of this frequently. It does work, but then this is why repugnant is now a -2 trait.

EDIT: Given your above replies, you've picked a -2 negative trait, so it should be an issue for you as you've handicapped yourself.

 

[Tim_Ward]

Pops consume energy, food, and consumer goods; what is left for amenities to abstractly represent that is not covered by these three? Especially because they're planet-bound, and don't transfer at all to other worlds.

You just answered your own question, they represent things that are planet bound and don't transfer to other worlds. Roads, etc.

 

[The Boz]

I have and to compensate you need to adjust by over compensating on specialist jobs like priests, or go heavy on clerks if not. Also make use of the luxury goods decision and over subscribe on consumer goods to make use of this frequently. It does work, but then this is why repugnant is now a -2 trait.

EDIT: Given your above replies, you've picked a -2 negative trait, so it should be an issue for you as you've handicapped yourself.

...but even with the trait, the problem disappears forever in 2240. It is my #1 go-to trait for grabbing with bioevolution, because the penalty just isn't there; free points. Gene clinic, a unity structure (built for the unity, not the amenities), and enough cities to house the pops, and you're done, well into the double digit green amenities.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

...but even with the trait, the problem disappears forever in 2240. It is my #1 go-to trait for grabbing with bioevolution, because the penalty just isn't there; free points. Gene clinic, a unity structure (built for the unity, not the amenities), and enough cities to house the pops, and you're done, well into the double digit green amenities.

Okay, so what's your point?

 

[The Boz]

...that it might as well not be in the game? Anything it does could be spread over the other dials and knobs. Habitability especially, given how unimportant it is right now.

You just answered your own question, they represent things that are planet bound and don't transfer to other worlds. Roads, etc.

Right. Roads, etc. That is why the trait that reduces amenities is called "repugnant", and the main sources of amenities are an entertainment building and a church. Sure.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

Right. Roads, etc. That is why the trait that reduces amenities is called "repugnant", and the main sources of amenities are an entertainment building and a church. Sure.

And administrators who build and maintain planet infrastructure...

...and clerks who do the basic admin work and office jobs that help facilitate trades and services...

...and buildings like luxury houses that provide benefits to those who could afford them...

I don't really get how gutting amenities could then be transposed to other functions, and as you highlight before, repugnant trait will make you dip into the red a few times, which is not a trivial thing to deal with.

 

[The Boz]

...which is not a trivial thing to deal with.

Actually, no. It is completely trivial, because the problem disappears before it can amount to anything. And amenities-neutral races NEVER encounter the red. Ever.

 

[kabill]

I think Madzai has it right above - the concept of Amenities is really good but the execution makes them fairly meaningless. You get loads of amenities from the capital alone, and most colonies will have a gene clinic for loads more (planetary admin + gene clinic is 31 amenities alone), so it's not something you need to think about except very occassionally or if you're playing with -amenities.

Part of a mod I'm writing looks to address this with a few moves:
- Tone amenity production right down, so there's less from capitals and no buildable jobs that give more than +2.
- Reverse stability and amenities, so stability modifiers the amenity upkeep of pops and amenities directly affect pop production
- Use civics to provide different ways of getting amenities through various jobs (e.g. technocracy giving amenities from researchers, or whatever).

Reducing amenity production means planets need to be developed more with amenities in mind, making them more relevant. Tying amenities to civics makes civics better at shaping the strengths of an empire (e.g. a Technocratic empire has more science not because they get more science, but because it will have more science jobs as scientists are a valid way to fill amenities holes). Reversing the effects of stability and amenities is not strictly necessary, but I think the interaction between amenities and happiness is more interesting this way as happiness doesn't just translate into bigger numbers but also potentially different numbers, i.e. more happiness = less amenties needed = either production bonuses from relatively higher amenities OR more non-amenity producing jobs perhaps producing things you wouldn't otherwise have.

Tests of this I've done seem to imply it works pretty well. So, even if amenities aren't very important in their existing implementation, there are ways in which they could be reworked to make them more relevant (this being an example).

 

[Mikhail_Mengsk]

Yeah, they aren't really an issue so their existence isn't really justified.

 

[AlanC9]

...that it might as well not be in the game? Anything it does could be spread over the other dials and knobs. Habitability especially, given how unimportant it is right now.

Right. Roads, etc. That is why the trait that reduces amenities is called "repugnant", and the main sources of amenities are an entertainment building and a church. Sure.

Personal services, then. Can't ship those without shipping the people who provide them.

 

[AlanC9]

Actually, no. It is completely trivial, because the problem disappears before it can amount to anything. And amenities-neutral races NEVER encounter the red. Ever.

Meaning the Stability red, not the Amenities red, right?

 

[permeakra]

Pops consume energy, food, and consumer goods; what is left for amenities to abstractly represent that is not covered by these three?

Civilian infrastructure and quality-of-life. No, it's not the same as housing. Yes, it is needed. Yes, it definitely should be planet-bound. Frankly speaking, I miss planet-bound food as well. And we could do with planet-, or at least system-bond minerals

I think Madzai has it right above - the concept of Amenities is really good but the execution makes them fairly meaningless. You get loads of amenities from the capital alone, and most colonies will have a gene clinic for loads more (planetary admin + gene clinic is 31 amenities alone), so it's not something you need to think about except very occassionally or if you're playing with -amenities.

OMG. Did you never got planets with 100+ pops ? And at 200+ pops amenities and crime fighting might occupy quite a lot of building slots, especially if you try to avoid dependency on advanced resources or have no such a nice option (hiveminds).