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Daelyn75

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Skepticism based purely on the laws of probability, actually, which is the basis for the entire scientific method. :) Scientist are a very skeptical lot (I say as one myself), because there are a lot of random flukes out there. If you want people to take your work seriously, you're going to need at least a 3-sigma detection in the hard sciences, often much higher (i.e., showing that the chance of what you observed happening purely by random chance is so small that it makes more sense to believe it happened as a result of something deterministic, usually a hypothesis you're positing support for).

But hey, if you want specific points addressed, I can do that too.

The photo, at this point in the thread, seems to have been pretty conclusively dated to two years before Earhart's disappearance, so I won't discuss it specifically, instead focusing on other points (I remain open to new evidence in this area, of course!).




That video…hoo boy. I watched it, and if I were to write a scientific paper with that slapdash level of quality it would be laughed out of every scientific journal on the planet. Leaving aside stuff about the photo (although I could go into that quite a bit too, such as false-positive rates for facial recognition and how seemingly only a single person did the analysis):
  • There's a file missing from the Office of Naval Investigation. Ok. Great. Is this an isolated instance? We're only told of one, which makes it sound like some big conspiracy or cover-up, but it could also have just as easily simply been misplaced. The ONI isn't infallible. How many other such files are missing? I'm sure the ONI loses, misfiles, or accidentally throws out things like other organizations do, and the farther back in time we look the more likely it is. We're never told how many other files are similarly missing, so we can't make a quantitative judgement of the rarity of this situation.
    • Even if it's a very rare thing to happen, it could still be down to simple human error. No government cover-up needed.
    • For that matter, the video takes this missing document as somehow evidence for its theory. We don't know what was in it. Maybe it was a boring technical report on the economic conditions of the Marshall Islands. No one knows, so taking it as evidence of a government cover-up is a serious leap of faith. That's the beauty of a conspiracy theory, that it can take the very lack of evidence for something as evidence for that something having occurred.
  • Ah, yes, this anonymous Marine Corps commandant. No name? Not even a picture of the letter he supposedly wrote? Seriously, this is basic level journalism. There's no way to check or corroborate this story. All we have is the presenter's word to go on. (Note that I'm not seriously suggesting the presenter is deliberately lying in this case, but would it kill him to at least mention a name??)
    • Being on the internet as long as I have, the phrase "We all know X" is an immediate red flag to me that X is probably not true and the speaker is trying to drum up support for their position by making it seem as if disagreement would be going against common knowledge. Anyone can claim that "We all know X" without it being true. ("We all know Paradox actually had the content for TfV and DoD ready to go at launch and chose to cut it for DLC later!")
      • For instance, we don't know the context of this mysterious letter. Was it a simple, matter-of-fact letter to a fellow commandant acknowledging something that was, indeed, common knowledge to both of them? Or was it a paranoid conspiracy theory to a fellow conspiracy nut saying "C'mon man, we all know that she was killed in Saipan, and that Martians have been stealing our cattle for decades!" The context is important in assessing credibility of the source.
    • And let's say it really was common knowledge among at least some people in the military. Are we seriously to believe that not a single person in possession of this secret (beyond this one anonymous guy) ever spilled it? No one, on their death bed, in fear of no government reprisal, ever went "Yeah, actually the government's been covering it up all along, but I know what happened to Amelia Earhart."? No one wrote a sensational exposé in search of fame and riches? No one ever accidentally let it slip while drunk? The more people know a secret the harder it is to keep it. Believing this requires a far greater faith in the ability of the common man's secret-keeping capacity than I have.
  • [mini rant]The guy in the video says at 3:52 "We have no evidence anywhere that she crashed into the ocean […] I think we have a lot of evidence that she lived and survived in the Marshall Islands." Well, of course we wouldn't find evidence if she crashed into the ocean! We would expect to find no evidence! The Pacific Ocean is huge. I live in Hawaii, surrounded by it, and have a faint inkling of just how enormous it is. A single plane and two people going missing somewhere in the Pacific Ocean and no evidence ever being found is overwhelmingly the most likely possibility (see also, that Malaysian Airlines flight where we—finally, after a year—got incredibly lucky and found a single bit of debris). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not finding evidence that she crashed into the ocean is entirely in line with what we would expect if she did, not evidence that she didn't crash into the ocean! [/mini rant] This twisting of logic to sell a story is seriously frustrating to me as a scientist. :mad:
Ok, I think that addresses all the non-photo-related points, but let me know if I missed one and I'll be happy to address it. :)
Have you read to the end of the thread?
 

Atlantians

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Arkhis

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Skepticism based purely on the laws of probability, actually, which is the basis for the entire scientific method. :) Scientist are a very skeptical lot (I say as one myself), because there are a lot of random flukes out there. If you want people to take your work seriously, you're going to need at least a 3-sigma detection in the hard sciences, often much higher (i.e., showing that the chance of what you observed happening purely by random chance is so small that it makes more sense to believe it happened as a result of something deterministic, usually a hypothesis you're positing support for).

But hey, if you want specific points addressed, I can do that too.

The photo, at this point in the thread, seems to have been pretty conclusively dated to two years before Earhart's disappearance, so I won't discuss it specifically, instead focusing on other points (I remain open to new evidence in this area, of course!).




That video…hoo boy. I watched it, and if I were to write a scientific paper with that slapdash level of quality it would be laughed out of every scientific journal on the planet. Leaving aside stuff about the photo (although I could go into that quite a bit too, such as false-positive rates for facial recognition and how seemingly only a single person did the analysis):
  • There's a file missing from the Office of Naval Investigation. Ok. Great. Is this an isolated instance? We're only told of one, which makes it sound like some big conspiracy or cover-up, but it could also have just as easily simply been misplaced. The ONI isn't infallible. How many other such files are missing? I'm sure the ONI loses, misfiles, or accidentally throws out things like other organizations do, and the farther back in time we look the more likely it is. We're never told how many other files are similarly missing, so we can't make a quantitative judgement of the rarity of this situation.
    • Even if it's a very rare thing to happen, it could still be down to simple human error. No government cover-up needed.
    • For that matter, the video takes this missing document as somehow evidence for its theory. We don't know what was in it. Maybe it was a boring technical report on the economic conditions of the Marshall Islands. No one knows, so taking it as evidence of a government cover-up is a serious leap of faith. That's the beauty of a conspiracy theory, that it can take the very lack of evidence for something as evidence for that something having occurred.
  • Ah, yes, this anonymous Marine Corps commandant. No name? Not even a picture of the letter he supposedly wrote? Seriously, this is basic level journalism. There's no way to check or corroborate this story. All we have is the presenter's word to go on. (Note that I'm not seriously suggesting the presenter is deliberately lying in this case, but would it kill him to at least mention a name??)
    • Being on the internet as long as I have, the phrase "We all know X" is an immediate red flag to me that X is probably not true and the speaker is trying to drum up support for their position by making it seem as if disagreement would be going against common knowledge. Anyone can claim that "We all know X" without it being true. ("We all know Paradox actually had the content for TfV and DoD ready to go at launch and chose to cut it for DLC later!")
      • For instance, we don't know the context of this mysterious letter. Was it a simple, matter-of-fact letter to a fellow commandant acknowledging something that was, indeed, common knowledge to both of them? Or was it a paranoid conspiracy theory to a fellow conspiracy nut saying "C'mon man, we all know that she was killed in Saipan, and that Martians have been stealing our cattle for decades!" The context is important in assessing credibility of the source.
    • And let's say it really was common knowledge among at least some people in the military. Are we seriously to believe that not a single person in possession of this secret (beyond this one anonymous guy) ever spilled it? No one, on their death bed, in fear of no government reprisal, ever went "Yeah, actually the government's been covering it up all along, but I know what happened to Amelia Earhart."? No one wrote a sensational exposé in search of fame and riches? No one ever accidentally let it slip while drunk? The more people know a secret the harder it is to keep it. Believing this requires a far greater faith in the ability of the common man's secret-keeping capacity than I have.
  • [mini rant]The guy in the video says at 3:52 "We have no evidence anywhere that she crashed into the ocean […] I think we have a lot of evidence that she lived and survived in the Marshall Islands." Well, of course we wouldn't find evidence if she crashed into the ocean! We would expect to find no evidence! The Pacific Ocean is huge. I live in Hawaii, surrounded by it, and have a faint inkling of just how enormous it is. A single plane and two people going missing somewhere in the Pacific Ocean and no evidence ever being found is overwhelmingly the most likely possibility (see also, that Malaysian Airlines flight where we—finally, after a year—got incredibly lucky and found a single bit of debris). Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Not finding evidence that she crashed into the ocean is entirely in line with what we would expect if she did, not evidence that she didn't crash into the ocean! [/mini rant] This twisting of logic to sell a story is seriously frustrating to me as a scientist. :mad:
Ok, I think that addresses all the non-photo-related points, but let me know if I missed one and I'll be happy to address it. :)

If I could give you a million agrees & helpful votes, I would. Too often people believe anything that's said to them, especially if the source pretends to be an authority, or if they just claim to have done extensive testing and that it proves it without a doubt. Much of what you wrote I also learned in my historical criticism course at uni (to which this is very much applicable, considering it's interpreting historical sources).

I read the articles about this claim before I saw this thread, and the moment I saw the alleged proof (the photo) I said to myself, this is bogus. There is absolutely NO proof of anything in that image.

Well, there is proof that there were several people present in that location, which is by a body of water, that there were several vessels, and that there was a small aircraft. Their clothing tells me the weather was probably quite agreeable.

TL;DR:

Your reaction to ANY claim like this should be "probably not true".
 

Philadelphus

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Have you read to the end of the thread?
As I always do before commenting in one. :) Well, except for those multi-hundred-page funny screenshot ones. :D If you think I've missed something feel free to point it out specifically.
 

Daelyn75

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As I always do before commenting in one. :) Well, except for those multi-hundred-page funny screenshot ones. :D If you think I've missed something feel free to point it out specifically.
No, the point is that we are past talking about the photo.

One doesn't need to be skeptical about new information. Seek out and find it for yourself. We have the internet now. The video that I put up was just a starting point. I'm not here to prove if it is correct or not. Based upon what was given it seemed that they were on to something and were most likely correct, and since we are allowed to voice our opinion here, I had done so.

I don't agree with how the scientific community works. People always defend their own theories even when it's well past obvious that no one is following it anymore. New ideas are accepted when the old generation dies off - which to me is not science. That's just people defending their egos.

Be open and skeptical at the same time, and not one or the other. That is why, if it is correct about the photo being from 1935, then I really cannot argue in favor of it anymore. But if I played devil's advocate to your act skeptically about everything, then I would still be defending it.

I'm clearly not defending it right now. That is why I asked you if you had read the entire thread.

"Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

This is a sad assessment of human kind.
 
Last edited:

Dirk_Slamchest

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No, the point is that we are past talking about the photo.

One doesn't need to be skeptical about new information. Seek out and find it for yourself. We have the internet now. The video that I put up was just a starting point. I'm not here to prove if it is correct or not. Based upon what was given it seemed that they were on to something and were most likely correct, and since we are allowed to voice our opinion here, I had done so.

I don't agree with how the scientific community works. People always defend their own theories even when it's well past obvious that no one is following it anymore. New ideas are accepted when the old generation dies off - which to me is not science. That's just people defending their egos.

Be accepting and skeptical at the same time, and not one or the other. That is why, if it is correct about the photo being from 1935, then I really cannot argue in favor of it anymore. But if I played devil's advocate to your act skeptically about everything, then I would still be defending it.

I'm clearly not defending it right now. That is why I asked you if you had read the entire thread.

"Science progresses one funeral at a time." -- Max Planck

This is a sad assessment of human kind.

The prevarication and vague anti-intellectualism in this post really grind my gears. If the scientific community works so poorly, what's your solution to inherent human bias, smart guy? I hope it's better than your useless platitude to be both "accepting and skeptical at the same time."

And you're still saying "if it is correct about the photo being from 1935" as if there are serious doubts left, even though you haven't raised any.
 

Daelyn75

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The prevarication and vague anti-intellectualism in this post really grind my gears. If the scientific community works so poorly, what's your solution to inherent human bias, smart guy? I hope it's better than your useless platitude to be both "accepting and skeptical at the same time."

And you're still saying "if it is correct about the photo being from 1935" as if there are serious doubts left, even though you haven't raised any.
"The prevarication and vague anti-intellectualism in this post,"

It's none of those. What it is is a response to someone who did a big write up about the photo and the other items surrounding it, and telling me to be skeptical of all things.

The choice of words might have been open and skeptical at the same time.
 
Last edited:

Anaraxes

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The photo, at this point in the thread, seems to have been pretty conclusively dated to two years before Earhart's disappearance
At least two years before her disappearance. The book containing the photo was printed in 1935, but the photo might be older, potentially even significantly older.

(If it mattered, the book might have credits for the individual photos, or the internal discussion of the picture and the purpose of the book might suggest a time. Was the photo taken specifically for the book -- and if so, what's a typical lead time to hire a photographer and have them travel to the Marshall Islands and back -- was it supposed to illustrate some event that has a known date, was it a file photo that could have been sitting around for decades., etc..)
 

Katsuki126

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Sigh, never seen something like that before, demanding explanation from those that respectfully disagree...

And you should be happy that I am the kind that give answer (that you could have figured by yourself else I would have made a full post on the matter)
So, I disagreed not because there was any statement to disagree with (there was not), but because I didn't like the behaviour behind this. Those three button are here to give a rapid opinion without writing an entire post. Demand answers and you kill their (useful) purpose. Because you made those demands I clicked disagree as simple as that.
 

Dirk_Slamchest

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"The prevarication and vague anti-intellectualism in this post,"

It's none of those. What it is is a response to someone who did a big write up about the photo and the other items surrounding it, and telling me to be skeptical of all things.

The choice of words might have been open and skeptical at the same time.

That's just as inane as your original wording.

And I know you were responding to someone else. That's not mutually exclusive with the things I accused you of. That person gave you information and sound advice, and your response was unfounded implications and accusing the scientific community of bias, i.e. "prevarication and vague anti-intellectualism."
 

Louella

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if the USA is being played by the AI, then, if Amelia Earhart survives her flight, she survives the war, because the AI doesn't choose to allow her to join the USAAF, and even if it did, the AI doesn't understand how to allocate aces created by events, or how to reassign aces after deleting an air wing.

Also, Amelia Earhart is the only female ace ingame who is coded properly. Random creation of female aces, something that the Soviet Union and Australia can have, and normally do have since the AI chooses the relevant national focuses, does not work, and the randomly-created aces don't use the right portraits, and are referred to incorrectly by news articles.

So, it's a bit :| in any case, regardless about the historical events that may or may not have occurred.
 

Daelyn75

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I hope I don't come across as rude, but thats not really your decision. I appreciate @Philadelphus write up.
It is my decision when I am talking about the photo, and I am being questioned on it. This thread would have died probably on the first page if Slight of Hand didn't bring up the History channel documentary based around the photo.

I looked into it myself and brought up the relevant information surrounding it that was made in the documentary. This was all put into an article that Slight of Hand linked. So after people were claiming not to believe it, I went and found that 6 minute video on the documentary since the documentary is not available to watch anywhere that I could find.

Then there was back and forth about the subject for 4 pages. So yes, it really is about the photo. Now it is turning into attack Daelyn75 for supporting the research about the photo. All I was given was that the History Channel is not trustworthy, and forensic photo analysis is not very accurate.

That isn't much to go on. I even made the statement for people to offer counter evidence and that didn't happen till several pages later that there were two people out there disputing the photo, and CNN created an article about it. Then Arkhis did his own translation of the photo that was a larger version with writing on it. He believes it to be from 1935 as well.

So I did follow the evidence they provided until it turned out that the date of the photo is highly questionable. As far as I am concerned it should have been left at page five when i stated that its probably a non-issue then.

I have been told to be skeptical about things like this all throughout the thread. Why? it is merely information. Information doesn't require skepticism, it is either true or not true. So why not investigate this? As far as I am concerned, I always keep an open mind to new information until it is shown to be most likely true or most likely not true. I was not given anything to believe it was most likely not true for some time.

"Be skeptical and the History Channel is highly questionable" is not enough to sway me without evidence. We are not talking the National Enquirer here, or World Weekly News.

I have never in my life heard that the History Channel puts out questionable content of their own - I'm not talking Ancient Aliens or their 20 hours of reality shows every day, but shows they create.

I always follow reason and evidence, and for several pages on this thread I was given nothing to go on to dispute what was presented from the documentary in the article and the video.

At least two years before her disappearance. The book containing the photo was printed in 1935, but the photo might be older, potentially even significantly older.

(If it mattered, the book might have credits for the individual photos, or the internal discussion of the picture and the purpose of the book might suggest a time. Was the photo taken specifically for the book -- and if so, what's a typical lead time to hire a photographer and have them travel to the Marshall Islands and back -- was it supposed to illustrate some event that has a known date, was it a file photo that could have been sitting around for decades., etc..)

There is a lot that we don't know here. The photo is a mystery, and though the researcher on the history channel claimed to have found the photo in a 1940 dated spot but believed it to be from 1937 for some reason. Now there are several people saying it was from a 1935 book. Well, what can I do at this point other than say someone messed up. The researcher from the history channel will have to provide evidence as to why he believes it is from 1937. Otherwise to me it would seem that the photo date is most likely an error on their part. But then again, I have not watched the documentary and maybe he explained in detail why he believed in the 1937 date. Until I can watch the video and even then if he doesn't explain his belief in the date then I can only assume that he made a mistake. If I could read Japanese, and come to my own conclusion on the date based upon the complicated way it is compared to our dating system then I could come up with my own answer. I cannot however, and so I can only go on what others are saying.

To Dirk-Slamches - I don't know you and you've been rude from the first comment you left for me. I don't owe you anything. You have been put on ignore. I will however answer have a conversation with Philidephus as long as the conversation is kept civil.
 
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