Am I the only one that's a little thrown off by this?

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panionios

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Here is an experiment for you:
Go to a bakery, buy a bun. Once you have paid and received your bun, demand that they also give you all the other buns that were baked in the same batch for no additional cost. Why should you only get one bun when they were all baked at the same time? Let us know how it goes.

Go to an electronics shop, buy a TV. You are informed that if you want the remote control included, you must buy the deluxe television. Let us know your reaction!
 

DanubianCossak

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You pay one price to get a fully functional game. They made a structure of features and stuff you get in that game, and its a finished product. A number of people worked on it for a certain amount of time, and its all packed up into a single package that you buy and consume. It all works (sometimes it takes a patch of 2, bugs sneak in etc, but were all humans, we make mistakes).

Then there is a DLC which independent thing. A structure of features on its own, worked by another team of people. Its a different product, that isnt independent of the game, but adds something else to that overall structure. Its completely optional. Nobody forces you to buy it.

Whats the problem?

I would be happier if they lowered the price of the main game (which is what i will buy) and then made as many DLCs as they could - if thats the thing that makes the most money / workhours...

Doomdark explained it well anyway.
 

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Here is an experiment for you:
Go to a bakery, buy a bun. Once you have paid and received your bun, demand that they also give you all the other buns that were baked in the same batch for no additional cost. Why should you only get one bun when they were all baked at the same time? Let us know how it goes.

This made my day :rofl: and is a perfect explanation why the day 1 DLC is not for free.
 

Slargos

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Go to an electronics shop, buy a TV. You are informed that if you want the remote control included, you must buy the deluxe television. Let us know your reaction!

The remote is more or less "essential" (well, not really, but who has a TV without a remote these days?) while the DLC is certainly not. Your comparison reeks.

Listening to your customers is all good and well, but quite frankly, the vocal whiners are typically the minority even if their shouting is the loudest.

Personally, I find the pricing on many Paradox titles obscenely low, given the amount of play time most people will get out of them compared to a majority of AAA titles.
 

James The 1st

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You could wait 3-4 months and release it then. Many people, including myself, when seeing a new game released and on the same date some form of an expansion pack also released for that game, will naturally ask the question "why is it not included in the game?" I do believe you when you say that it is indeed extra content that would otherwise have not been made, but still, I don't like the timing.
That's just silly, why should I not get this cool new content just because it upset your timing sensibility?

But thats the thing, why should we need to buy it?
That way you wouldnt also be bothered if they sold the game for 5 euros and sold playing as each individual country for another euro a piece DLC.
They should rather raise the price a bit and add it to the main game, than making it a DLC imho.
What the heck is the difference then?

Go to an electronics shop, buy a TV. You are informed that if you want the remote control included, you must buy the deluxe television. Let us know your reaction!
No no no, the remote is an essential thing. A better example would be, you can get the standard TV, or get the deluxe TV that has a function that turns on when you clap.
 

justin6477

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To play off Darkrenown's example, I feel like people are angry about buying a dozen buns and not getting thirteen. "It is a baker's dozen after-all" they cry, while the baker reminds them that they paid for twelve and not thirteen.
 

Darkrenown

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Go to an electronics shop, buy a TV. You are informed that if you want the remote control included, you must buy the deluxe television. Let us know your reaction!

You're bad at analogies. Let me explain:
The buns are cooked at the same time, yet each one consumes its own resources and is expected to be sold separately. Additional buns are not needed to consume the bun you purchased, but may be enjoyed.
Base game and day1 DLC are produced at the same time, yet each one consumes its own resources and is expected to be sold separately. Additional DLCs are not needed to play your base game, but may be enjoyed.

On the other hand, modern TVs tend to have no manual control panel and can only be used via the remote or a cumbersome menu system - the remote is almost vital and significantly impacts the use of the TV.

Edit: Damnit, now I am hungry :(
 

GreatSlayer

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You're bad at analogies. Let me explain:
The buns are cooked at the same time, yet each one consumes its own resources and is expected to be sold separately. Additional buns are not needed to consume the bun you purchased, but may be enjoyed.
Base game and day1 DLC are produced at the same time, yet each one consumes its own resources and is expected to be sold separately. Additional DLCs are not needed to play your base game, but may be enjoyed.

On the other hand, modern TVs tend to have no manual control panel and can only be used via the remote or a cumbersome menu system - the remote is almost vital and significantly impacts the use of the TV.

Edit: Damnit, now I am hungry :(
Your anology more suits that if a player was buying the game, they'd expect every other game printed that day to come with the price.
A more proper anology would be buying a bun, and expecting it to contain spices. You don't need the spices to enjoy the bun, but they sure do add to the flavor, and usually bakeries don't ask for more money to include them. They're usually just BAKED, into the price.
 
Last edited:

Gedierond

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Gotta say, I wasn´t actually thrilled about the day-1-DLC stuff when I first learned about it. But after reading both sides´ arguments I´m convinced. It´s a valid business model. One may not like it, or may not want to expend the extra money and be part of it, but it is valid. I find no base to accuse PI of trying to rip off their customers, really.
I understand people being suspicious about it (I was too, after all). But I find the reasons behind the model reasonable (even if it sounds repetitive, lol!).

As for me, I´ll go for the Extreme Edition, taking advantage of Steam´s discount (yay!). Pre-ordering tonight!
 

Merrivale

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Darkrenown has mostly said it already but I'm always amazed by how little people understand about business and accounting.

Every game, EUIV included, has a budget. This is set before work on the game begins and includes paying the folks who make the game. It does not matter that they are (I assume) salaried employees: their salaries always come from working on a game, in this case EUIV. If Paradox ends up taking more hours than was initially allotted to make the game then they are over-budget. If they are way over-budget, then it almost doesn't matter how many sales the title gets because they've already squandered the money (see MMtG). If you continually make over-budget games in order to please the masses, you don't get to make games anymore because you don't have any money (again, see MMtG).

So if Paradox decides that they have some programmers sitting around who need work to do, the money to pay them has to come from somewhere. It can't come from the EUIV budget because that's all already accounted for, thus the new revenue stream of the DLC. Rather than increase the price of EUIV for EVERYONE in order to pay for this programming, Paradox chooses to increase the price only for those who decide they want it. And as an aside, I'm skeptical of how "essential" these events are (no offense Darkrenown) given that we know absolutely nothing about them.

The next objection I'm sure has to do with the price of the DLC compared to the game. And that has to do with the fact that these DLC's finance the free patching of the game. CKII is all you need to look at. I do not own any CKII DLCs (again, sorry Darkrenown, I just haven't been playing a lot of CKII). So I'm actually freeloading off of all of the people that do because I can still get the most current patches and actually quite a bit of the DLC content without buying them.

The bottom line is that everything costs money: people that work on patches have to get paid, people who work on the base game have to get paid, and people who work on DLC content have to get paid. Paradox has decided to price the base game low (and discount the hell out of it after awhile) and recoup money to pay for post-release support from optional DLCs. Others may prefer (or think they prefer) that Paradox priced the base game at more like $100, without discounting, and gave all post-release support to all for free. I like Paradox's way much better, and CKII is proof enough that most people do too.
 

aramael

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EUIV is like a serve of hot chips, the DLC is the mayonnaise (or tomato sauce if you're a heathen). The first expansion will be like a cold beer to have with the chips on a hot summer day. Music DLC is like a coin for the jukebox in the pub with the terrace on which you're enjoying the chips and beer.

Well, I hope this clears it up for everybody. I'm off to the pub.
 

Darkrenown

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Your anology more suits that if a player was buying the game, and expecting every other game printed that day to come with the price.
A more proper anology would be buying a bun, and expecting it to contain spices. You don't need the spices to enjoy the bun, but they sure do add to the flavor.

No, the people claiming day1 DLC should be in the base game literally are expecting extra things for the same cost. Let's continue the bun-based arguments, they work so well:
You go into the bakery, they have plain buns and slightly more expensive spiced buns. "Hey!", you exclaim, "You baked those spiced buns at the same time as the plain buns! I should get a spiced bun at the same cost as the plain bun!"

I'll go ahead and explain in advance: The spiced bun has extra content added, above what goes into the plain bun. The plain bun is still a fine, tasty bun, but the spiced bun has added spices and it costs a little more even though it was baked in the same batch!
Plain bun = base game.
Spiced bun = extreme edition.

Edit: Merrivale is wise.
 

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No, the people claiming day1 DLC should be in the base game literally are expecting extra things for the same cost. Let's continue the bun-based arguments, they work so well:
You go into the bakery, they have plain buns and slightly more expensive spiced buns. "Hey!", you exclaim, "You baked those spiced buns at the same time as the plain buns! I should get a spiced bun at the same cost as the plain bun!"

I'll go ahead and explain in advance: The spiced bun has extra content added, above what goes into the plain bun. The plain bun is still a fine, tasty bun, but the spiced bun has added spices and it costs a little more even though it was baked in the same batch!
Plain bun = base game.
Spiced bun = extreme edition.
Yes, but you claimed he was clamoring for every bun in the batch, by expecting DLC's to be in the game, which was a bad anology, when you said he was bad at analogies. Your first was more in lieu to expect extra copies of games for the price of one. Your second one here was much better, and I take full credit for it. :D
 

wackazoa

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Here is an experiment for you:
Go to a bakery, buy a bun. Once you have paid and received your bun, demand that they also give you all the other buns that were baked in the same batch for no additional cost. Why should you only get one bun when they were all baked at the same time? Let us know how it goes.
That is an interesting proposal. I instead will just go to a deli and buy a sandwhich, that way the work shall be done for me. :D

Actually just wanted to write and give props to the Pdox devs. The game is looking good from the screens and videos I have seen, and I'm really looking foward to playing the game.

As for the DLC issue, I would like it to be all included, but I understand how buisness works. And besides, for Pdox grand strategies it's not a huge deal breaker for me. For a game that has a story that is BEING told rather than being MADE, such as Skyrim, Bioshock, or Mass Effect, then yes day 1 DLC is a bit harder to take.

And again, thank you to Darkrenown and all the other devs for thier hard work and communication.
 

panionios

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You go into the bakery, they have plain buns and slightly more expensive spiced buns. "Hey!", you exclaim, "You baked those spiced buns at the same time as the plain buns! I should get a spiced bun at the same cost as the plain bun!"

Now that's a much better analogy because GreatSlayer was actually right about your original experiment. And since we are talking about food/buns, any chance of getting in the future a kanelbulle as DLC.
 

king of AR

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okay i don't know why everyone else is freaking out but to all paradox employees I'm fine with the dlc approach and your doing an excellent job and I will be getting the Extreme edition soon .And remember you can't please everyone but you please me.
 

Death6

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I hope there will be a bun DLC soon. A spicy one at that! :rofl:
 

Krask

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No, you arn't the only one as evident by the tons of other threads. Use the dam search feature...
 

Death6

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Europa Universalis IV : A Bun Of Darkness.
 
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