Interesting report, thanks Ges. To strt with the tag Alun uses should be kept free, to make them compatible. AFAIK the MUS tag is not used, so it shouldn't be a problem.
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First off, thanks Ges for the report! I've had rather limited feedback that goes into gameplay specifics.
As you might have guessed, I've done a fair number of games with my mod, both hands on and off. I haven't actually kept records though, so these comments are from memory.
England
It's typical that AI England goes through one more state religion change back and forth with my mod than without. As Ges noted, this is due to the long time between "The Act of Supremacy" and the actual religion changes in England, which didn't really get started until the reign of Edward VI (starting in 1547). They could probably do without this... I'm not sure how best to handle this.
My current idea (untested though) is to change "The Act of Supremacy" event so that it doesn't actually change the state religion, but "only" emulates much of the effects (some of which would probably need to be taken back if/when they convert "for real"). This would actuallty be fairly historical, I think, since for most intents and purposes the Church of England remained catholic at the time. Except, of course, for the not so unimportant point of having broken with the pope.
Two potential problems with this:
. Foreign relations presumably wont work out quite right if England formally remains catholic.
. Any colonists sent at the time will be catholic, which just might lower the probability that England converts "for real" once their home provinces starts converting.
This would have to be play tested to see how it works out in practice.
Sweden
The slow conversion is intentional, it was IRL... I was a bit worried that this would cause AI Sweden to go through another round of state religion changes (as happened in Ges's second game), just like England, but in my experience this is actually fairly rare. It does hurt Sweden a bit economically to have so many wrong religion provinces for such a relatively long period of time (and sending missionaries to provinces that will probably convert anyway), but since Sweden tends to be overpowered in this period, I don't really see this as a problem.
Russia
There are events for the ugric areas, but they have to be converted to catholic first (or reformed, but that's rather unlikely), and even then they have lower conversion probability. The latter is mainly to prevent too ahistorical spread of protestantism most of the time.
One might well argue that if these areas are turned catholic by say Sweden, they should have about the same likelyhood of converting as the historical Swedish provinces. On the other hand one might well argue that changing religion is way too easy anyway (especially in colonies). IRL none of these converted in the reformation. Kexholm only "converted" later, and even then it was largely by immigration/emigration rather than conversion.
Poland
I too have seen them go protestant once or twice. This is by far the minority of the times though. Not unreasonable I think.
Austria
I have seen them too go protestant a few times, but again this is by far the minority. Again reasonable I think. Unfortunately the Paradox events aren't very well suited to handle a protestant Austria. Should be fixable though. I haven't checked the AGCEEP ones.
As you might have guessed, I've done a fair number of games with my mod, both hands on and off. I haven't actually kept records though, so these comments are from memory.
England
It's typical that AI England goes through one more state religion change back and forth with my mod than without. As Ges noted, this is due to the long time between "The Act of Supremacy" and the actual religion changes in England, which didn't really get started until the reign of Edward VI (starting in 1547). They could probably do without this... I'm not sure how best to handle this.
My current idea (untested though) is to change "The Act of Supremacy" event so that it doesn't actually change the state religion, but "only" emulates much of the effects (some of which would probably need to be taken back if/when they convert "for real"). This would actuallty be fairly historical, I think, since for most intents and purposes the Church of England remained catholic at the time. Except, of course, for the not so unimportant point of having broken with the pope.
Two potential problems with this:
. Foreign relations presumably wont work out quite right if England formally remains catholic.
. Any colonists sent at the time will be catholic, which just might lower the probability that England converts "for real" once their home provinces starts converting.
This would have to be play tested to see how it works out in practice.
Sweden
The slow conversion is intentional, it was IRL... I was a bit worried that this would cause AI Sweden to go through another round of state religion changes (as happened in Ges's second game), just like England, but in my experience this is actually fairly rare. It does hurt Sweden a bit economically to have so many wrong religion provinces for such a relatively long period of time (and sending missionaries to provinces that will probably convert anyway), but since Sweden tends to be overpowered in this period, I don't really see this as a problem.
Russia
There are events for the ugric areas, but they have to be converted to catholic first (or reformed, but that's rather unlikely), and even then they have lower conversion probability. The latter is mainly to prevent too ahistorical spread of protestantism most of the time.
One might well argue that if these areas are turned catholic by say Sweden, they should have about the same likelyhood of converting as the historical Swedish provinces. On the other hand one might well argue that changing religion is way too easy anyway (especially in colonies). IRL none of these converted in the reformation. Kexholm only "converted" later, and even then it was largely by immigration/emigration rather than conversion.
Poland
I too have seen them go protestant once or twice. This is by far the minority of the times though. Not unreasonable I think.
Austria
I have seen them too go protestant a few times, but again this is by far the minority. Again reasonable I think. Unfortunately the Paradox events aren't very well suited to handle a protestant Austria. Should be fixable though. I haven't checked the AGCEEP ones.
I have seen Austria go protestant once in about 25 games w/this mod so it is quite rare, but I think it ads an exciting possibility that it can/might happen
One thing I've done for Sweden and Denmark was make an event which converted all of the colonizable provinces which remain catholic because of province.csv to protestantism. I did this because it doesn't seem at all accurate that the colonized areas remain catholic while the rest of the nation turns protestant. Also, my Sweden is considerably weaker than the vanilla Sweden so having to spend sums on missionaries and lose out economically on catholic provinces can really hurt the ai.
The event looks like this:
Short, sweet, and with this Denmark and Sweden don't waste time and money on conversions when they should be vying for Baltic, German, and Scandinavian territory.
Max
The event looks like this:
Code:
#Protestant Conversions#
event = {
id = 25613
trigger = {
religion = protestant
}
random = no
country = SWE
style = 1
date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1525 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }
name = "Protestant Conversions"
desc = "A fix for the colonizable areas"
action_a ={ #OK#
name = "OK"
command = { type = conversion which = 259 }
command = { type = conversion which = 260 }
command = { type = conversion which = 261 }
command = { type = conversion which = 262 }
command = { type = conversion which = 266 }
command = { type = conversion which = 267 }
command = { type = conversion which = 269 }
command = { type = conversion which = 275 }
command = { type = conversion which = 1466 }
command = { type = conversion which = 1470 }
command = { type = conversion which = 1537 }
command = { type = conversion which = 1538 }
}
}Short, sweet, and with this Denmark and Sweden don't waste time and money on conversions when they should be vying for Baltic, German, and Scandinavian territory.
Max
WHAT! Something else to tweak and adjust for?Mad King James said:
Alright, might as well. After all making the game interesting is what we're here for, or something like that.
Lord Tarleton said:WHAT! Something else to tweak and adjust for?
Alright, might as well. After all making the game interesting is what we're here for, or something like that.
Well at least you remember that
If there's no overwhelming objections I'll go ahead and send this to Jester. I'll make it a startup option at the very least so it can be diasabled. It can very easily be cut, if warranted, as I'll keep everything in it's own folder.
It can very easily be cut, if warranted, as I'll keep everything in it's own folder.
I don't really agree that large colonial areas would always convert. I guess some would, some wouldn't. Sometimes it were the religious minorities that went to the colonies. Not that Sweden have many colonies in the beginning of the 16th when played by AI,but it can surely happen to the player.maxpublic said:
But then they ought to have their own versions of Alun's events no? Perhaps it's more an issue of timing the conversions relative to when the country converts.
Norrefeldt said:
These aren't really colonial areas. They're simply the northern areas of Scandinavia and, IIRC, the unpopulated areas of northern Russia if the Swedes manage to take them. The event doesn't convert Swedish overseas colonies, just Scandinavia proper. It's no different from the Paradox event which, in one sweeping blow, converts all of Sweden and Norway into protestant nations.
It just seemed silly to me that all of Scandinavia would convert...except some place like Finmark, if you happened to turn it into a city prior to the event. Doesn't make any sense game-wise. And, as I said, my Sweden is weaker than the Sweden in the vanilla game and they can hardly afford to waste resources trying to convert some 1200-pop province that they 'colonized' prior to Protestantism.
Max
True, but my mod handles these things quite differently...maxpublic said:
That, of course, doesn't mean there can't be added events that eg help certain countries in certain regions if that is needed, but I think that's an area that may need to be handled cautiously.
OK, I understand. Yes, they ought to convert/have chance to convert just like the rest of Scandinavia.maxpublic said:
This whole issue of reformation isn't that big of a issue. Alun already have events for the whole of region if those provinces are catholic. One thing I am afraid is that his propabilities isn't no where near historical or "right" if those provinces are owned by sweden or denmark, have ugric/scandinavian culture and are catholic. (He only gives ~30% chance IIRC) (No norway here because Alun gives independent Norway much more lower propabilities to convert her provinces than Sweden or Denmark)
So to make it "better" or more historical we should agree what is the right propability to those provinces to convert if they are under those circumstances.
Then one another question: What happens with these kind of events:
I don't have chance to test this now so please tell me what the hell happens.
So to make it "better" or more historical we should agree what is the right propability to those provinces to convert if they are under those circumstances.
Then one another question: What happens with these kind of events:
Code:
#Conversion of Finnmark
event = {
id = 291030
random = no
country = SWE
trigger = {
owned = { province = 261 data = -1 }
provincereligion = { province = 261 data = catholic }
OR = { provinceculture = { prov = 261 data = scandinavian }
provinceculture = { prov = 261 data = ugric } }
NOT = { event = 291031
}
}
name = "Reformation in Finnmark"
desc = "Conversion"
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = march year = 1545 }
deathdate = { day = 13 month = june = 1545 }
offset = 100
action_a ={
name = "OK"
command = { type = provincereligion which = 261 value = protestant }
}
}
#Conversion of Finnmark
event = {
id = 291031
random = no
country = SWE
trigger = {
owned = { province = 261 data = -1 }
provincereligion = { province = 261 data = catholic }
OR = { provinceculture = { prov = 261 data = scandinavian }
provinceculture = { prov = 261 data = ugric } }
NOT = { event = 291030
}
}
name = "Reformation in Finnmark"
desc = "No Conversion"
style = 2
date = { day = 1 month = june year = 1545 }
action_a ={
name = "OK"
command = { }
}
}I don't have chance to test this now so please tell me what the hell happens.
From Alun's thread, I assume the first post holds the current version, seems it does:Ges said:
N Sweden 1525-1552 85% 90% 95%
I think those values are OK. Remember that they cannot be set to just what we like, since the increments are decided by the hard-coded AI selection probabilities.
Norrefeldt said:
Actually I believe that we are talking about these numbers:
# NW Russia 1530-1557 15% 28% 39%
# N Russia 1535-1562 5% 15% 28%
# NW Russia (Kola, Karelia, Kexholm, Ingermanland)
# N Russia (Olonets, Arkhangelsk)
And conversion to happen these provinces have to be already catholics - no matter what culture is. My main point is that if provinces Kola(262) & Karelia(1470) would be in the first place colonised (and still owned) by Sweden/Norway/Denmark - then the actual conversion rate would be much higher than 5-39%. (maybe even as high as those in rest of Sweden) Same must be applied already catholic and Den/Swe owned provinces of Kexholm & Ingermanland. this would all happen in reformation time.
Another story is the historical swedish expansion to Kexholm & Ingermanland in the early 17th hundred. Then (1580-1657) the original orthodox ugric population fled to Russia and new people (protestant ugric) moved in. Sweden in fact tried to colonize Ingermanland with german and swedish but most newcomers were from Finland. This can easily be modeled with events.
Another problem is the development after 1703. What would be the correct province culture & religion 1) If russia manages to get hold of ugric/protestant Kexholm & Ingermanland. 2a) If Russia gets Ingermanland after 1725 and event 3424(Move Capital to St
etersburg) never fires 2b) If russia goes with 3424b and capital stays at moscow.Historically Sankt Petersburg was capital and Ingermanland unarguable turned russian/orthodox province. The status of Kexholm is much more unclear. It was clearly ugric but when it should be seen as orthodox. In the end of 18th hundred? Should this be modeled by events or should it just be part of normal game flow? And what if there is no event 3424a and no sankt petersburg in ingermanland? what would be the most likely historical development for population in ingermanland? How about if russia gets protestant ingermanland & Kexholm (and maybe protestant and scandinavian Karelia&Kola) back earlier? say in the early 1600s?
I believe it's clear that if Russia gets hold of Kexholm and Ingermanland in 1700 or later then the event 3424(Move Capital to St
etersburg) is enough to model most historical and what ifs for Kexholm and Ingermanland.
OK, I thought we were talking of Finnmark and Narvik. Sorry.Ges said:
o I agree. Can this be done Alun?Ges said:
I think they should just follow normal game mechanics that works pretty well in these cases. Otherwise we have to think of what would happen if Sweden takes Kexholm/Ingermanland, then Russia retakes it rather fast and so on. What if Denmark intervenes, as can happen since Denmark can get core in Estonia. Changing cultures should also be done after much consideration. St Petersburg getting Russian culture is fine, but I don't think there should be other changes as well in this area. We cannot cover the what-ifs and it wouldn't be treated consistent with other areas. Just my opinion though.Ges said:Another story is the historical swedish expansion to Kexholm & Ingermanland in the early 17th hundred. Then (1580-1657) the original orthodox ugric population fled to Russia and new people (protestant ugric) moved in. Sweden in fact tried to colonize Ingermanland with german and swedish but most newcomers were from Finland. This can easily be modeled with events.
Another problem is the development after 1703. What would be the correct province culture & religion 1) If russia manages to get hold of ugric/protestant Kexholm & Ingermanland. 2a) If Russia gets Ingermanland after 1725 and event 3424(Move Capital to St
Historically Sankt Petersburg was capital and Ingermanland unarguable turned russian/orthodox province. The status of Kexholm is much more unclear. It was clearly ugric but when it should be seen as orthodox. In the end of 18th hundred? Should this be modeled by events or should it just be part of normal game flow? And what if there is no event 3424a and no sankt petersburg in ingermanland? what would be the most likely historical development for population in ingermanland? How about if russia gets protestant ingermanland & Kexholm (and maybe protestant and scandinavian Karelia&Kola) back earlier? say in the early 1600s?
I believe it's clear that if Russia gets hold of Kexholm and Ingermanland in 1700 or later then the event 3424(Move Capital to St
Ges said:
Not much. The events won't appear on the screen, and there will be no effects, but they will be added to the game log of events so that they can be used as triggers for subsequent events. Flags could be used instead if we needed to simplify the way it works.
I'm Ok with upping the conversion probabilities for Kola et al. But they are cheap to convert anyway, particularly if they've been colonized to Scandanavian culture.
Norrefeldt: I don't actually claim ownership of the files or anything, so even if I objected you could do whatever you wanted with your copy. (I'd strongly recommend keeping the documentation in good order though.) That said, I'm willing to implement myself just about any change for which some sort of well-reasoned consensus can be reached.
I did expect that the Russian setup would be somewhat controversial, but I rather expected that most of the complaints would be from conservatives wanting to restrict protestantism to more or less historical borders... I guess either I was wrong, or those conservatives just aren't reading this thread.
Anyway, I don't really feel strongly one way or the other on this, if we can just agree what the numbers should be, I'll change it for the next version.
On the later Kexholm/Ingermanland developments, that's outside the scope of the mod really. Which wont prevent me from commenting though.
I think the emigration of orthodox Karelians from Kexholm is well worth a stand-alone "normal" event. I'd say trigger on Kexholm being owned and orthodox and probably also on Savolax being owned and protestant (most of the immigration was from there IIRC). I probably would not require the state religion to be protestant, I doubt there was much the government (or church) could do about these movements even if they wanted. Not sure of the date range, but sometime early 17th century. Kexholm converts to protestant as a result. Possibly some population/tax base/manpower changes too, but I don't really have any idea if the population etc actually increased or decreased during these movements.
While Sweden made some more or less serious attempts to convert Ingermanland, they failed. In EU2 terms that sounds very much like failed missionaries, so I'd say leave it alone.
As for Russian reconquest, Ingermanland deserves some attention, otherwise I'd say leave them alone.
I did expect that the Russian setup would be somewhat controversial, but I rather expected that most of the complaints would be from conservatives wanting to restrict protestantism to more or less historical borders... I guess either I was wrong, or those conservatives just aren't reading this thread.
Anyway, I don't really feel strongly one way or the other on this, if we can just agree what the numbers should be, I'll change it for the next version.
On the later Kexholm/Ingermanland developments, that's outside the scope of the mod really. Which wont prevent me from commenting though.
I think the emigration of orthodox Karelians from Kexholm is well worth a stand-alone "normal" event. I'd say trigger on Kexholm being owned and orthodox and probably also on Savolax being owned and protestant (most of the immigration was from there IIRC). I probably would not require the state religion to be protestant, I doubt there was much the government (or church) could do about these movements even if they wanted. Not sure of the date range, but sometime early 17th century. Kexholm converts to protestant as a result. Possibly some population/tax base/manpower changes too, but I don't really have any idea if the population etc actually increased or decreased during these movements.
While Sweden made some more or less serious attempts to convert Ingermanland, they failed. In EU2 terms that sounds very much like failed missionaries, so I'd say leave it alone.
As for Russian reconquest, Ingermanland deserves some attention, otherwise I'd say leave them alone.