Alternatives to Ascension

[Taritu]

The Amish live longer, are happier and have lower crime than the society around them. They do no harm to society, unlike many subcultures, and they don't evangelize (grow) so they're no threat to the ethos of the time. They're a faction that always has zero chance to grow, as it were, and thus irrelevant to the governing power. Given their compliance with government demands, even a benefit.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

New end game ascension perks "Fallen Empire." Gives access to Fallen Empire projects that, upon completion, leave your entire society just, like, super exhausted man.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

Many thanks.

 

[Drakonn]

And the Immortal leaders could actually be a problem in Authoritarian Governments.

I'm curious, how so?

New end game ascension perks "Fallen Empire." Gives access to Fallen Empire projects that, upon completion, leave your entire society just, like, super exhausted man.

Which explains why Fallen Empires tend to suddenly act like they all got a coffee infusion and interested in galactic politics all of the sudden.

 

[The Founder]

I'm curious, how so?

Dictatorial (Heir and Election) only select a new Leader upon current ruler death.
With election you can at least pick wich of the 4 will become the leader.
Without it, it is one set of ruler traits. You better hope you rolled right when that robotic Heir was created. You will not get another one short of a Event Executing it.

 

[Felfox]

The way I see it, ascension paths are meant to be just that, a way for your species as a whole to try and reach the next level of existence. Basically the people of your empire go through the growth pains of trying to 'evolve' themselves ultimately through some means. Psionics believe they can reach perfection through the mind, gene-therapists believe they can become perfect through body, and synths believe replacing the body entirely will give them perfection. It's possible to mix and match and realistically I would see any society trying all three as well as alternatives such as megastructures or world shaping but ultimately only one can truly win out.

Now bear in mind this is more of a fluff response than a game response. If you reach enlightenment, your mind becomes one with the universe and you eventually become a being of pure energy and don't need a body. If your body is able to adapt to anything, immune to everything and doesn't need anything, then you can do anything. Same for machines because if you can just replace your body with parts that do whatever you need for you, then the universe is yours to play with. However, if your body is perfect, then why replace it, and if your cybernetics can do anything, then why have a body to begin with. Ultimately it's pointless to do multiple paths once one of the three wins over. Not to mention that if your people are perfect, then you now have all the time in the universe to experiment, build mega structures and so on because nothing can stop you.

Reversely, not perfecting your people means you're still trapped to the confines of the universe. Each dyson sphere you build, every ring world you make, every planet you terraform is just another means to try and prolong your race and keep them going. In a sense, not picking an ascension path and following through to the end is what makes you a fallen empire. You've reached the pinnacle of your people's ability to research and learn but don't know how to move on beyond taking more space up, which in turn means more resources dedicated to keeping your people going.

Obviously as far as the game is concerned, you're not going to turn into energy beings or become so flawless your people become as one or the galaxy is one giant dyson sphere that you use to travel the cosmos because you'd have long since won by then... There are a bunch of abilities you can take besides ascension that, like others have said, are just as good and still represent a critical moment in your people's history. Just because you don't chose any ascension perks in your playthrough doesn't mean your people won't eventually settle on one, it just means they had other things to deal with first.

I'm sure the devs are aware of this and will be adding more stuff as time goes on to fill in each and every little gap the game currently or may have down the line.

And if not, mods!

 

[Rip Off Productions]

Ascension is the endgame for species. If you don't want to take your species to its endgame, there are plenty of other things you can do with them. So far we've seen things like orbital habitats and megastructures for expanding your empire territory. I also think they've mentioned/hinted at a terraforming endgame (possibly making gaia-formation easier). that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but what they have is pretty exciting.

sure, but why delay giving your people immortality? be it through biological, mechanical, or spiritual means, it is cruel to condemn people to die when the option for them to live forever is available:

"I don't care what form I take, so long as I get to carry on"

 

[Crenickator]

The way I see it, ascension paths are meant to be just that, a way for your species as a whole to try and reach the next level of existence.

I see it the same way. I just also think there is room for a way to eschew Ascension without automatically becoming a Fallen Empire, with an eye towards the philosophy of "Look at all that we've accomplished as we are. Why would we want to become something else?"

 

[Felfox]

I see it the same way. I just also think there is room for a way to eschew Ascension without automatically becoming a Fallen Empire, with an eye towards the philosophy of "Look at all that we've accomplished as we are. Why would we want to become something else?"

I get what you're saying but look at it this way, the reason you strive towards ascendance and change yourself is because you acknowledge that your current form is flawed and constrained by nature. There's nothing wrong with taking your time towards ascendance, heck there's nothing to say your species didn't ascend after you've already won (which is why I'd love to see a bunch of things alongside ascendance) However the fact remains that eventually your species will reach at least one of these three states or they'll stagnate like a fallen empire.

 

[The Founder]

I get what you're saying but look at it this way, the reason you strive towards ascendance and change yourself is because you acknowledge that your current form is flawed and constrained by nature. There's nothing wrong with taking your time towards ascendance, heck there's nothing to say your species didn't ascend after you've already won (which is why I'd love to see a bunch of things alongside ascendance) However the fact remains that eventually your species will reach at least one of these three states or they'll stagnate like a fallen empire.

What if what makes them "Fallen Empires", is that they have completed all Traditions eons ago?

If traditions are a thing in game, then all FE should by definition have all of them finished. They had plenty of time for it. And unless you keep on Ship shelters, you will have some unity income either way.

They only became stagnant, because they ran out of Traditions to pursue. Out of Ascension Perks to pick.

 

[Felfox]

What if what makes them "Fallen Empires", is that they have completed all Traditions eons ago?

If traditions are a thing in game, then all FE should by definition have all of them finished. They had plenty of time for it. And unless you keep on Ship shelters, you will have some unity income either way.

They only became stagnant, because they ran out of Traditions to pursue. Out of Ascension Perks to pick.

The problem is that by definition, the ascension perks are designed to show your species is on their way to ascend. Ascending in the cosmic sense tends to imply a species that is beyond the mortal constraints originally placed upon it. Those that have reached the peak of mental ascension would have become one with the universe, they would in essence become like Q or so beyond our reality that they've literally moved on. Those that have biologically ascended would become so perfect in form as well as able to manipulate and seed worlds to the point they would become the new creators of the cosmos. They could survive on any world, adapt to any condition and become immortal, in essence they would become the new trans-galactic space sludge free to explore and view all of reality. The same could be said for a mechanical ascension, except instead of spreading and seeding and altering the universe, your species would be able to density itself and in essence would become the new infinity machine. A perfect traveling machine able to learn all there is in the universe.

A species that has stagnated like the Fallen Empires are by definition the empires that did NOT know how to ascend. They might have studied and learned every trait there is but the one that has eluded them, or the one they've been too afraid to do is the one that truly lets them ascend. An FE represents the troubles of a species that has long since reached the pinnacle of greatness, who has studied all there is to know and found themselves with no idea what to do next. They've either taken so long to get to where they are that ascension is just no longer possible, or they're too stubborn in their ways or they simply can't conceive of a way to push past the bonds of their mortal forms.

 

[lilsaihah]

To be completely honest I get the feeling that empires which expand early and often will have an extremely difficult time earning Ascension perks. If you are playing a rushing playstyle, Ascension may not be a realistic option.

Not to mention that these perks provide no real immediate military benefits. If you can make a timing push with a militarily oriented Ascension perk, you will likely annihilate anyone trying to Ascend.

 

[Drowe]

I get what you're saying but look at it this way, the reason you strive towards ascendance and change yourself is because you acknowledge that your current form is flawed and constrained by nature. There's nothing wrong with taking your time towards ascendance, heck there's nothing to say your species didn't ascend after you've already won (which is why I'd love to see a bunch of things alongside ascendance) However the fact remains that eventually your species will reach at least one of these three states or they'll stagnate like a fallen empire.

Not necessarily, immortality is often both a blessing and a curse. An immortal species really only has a few options that don't lead to becoming a fallen empire or disappearing completely. And that's by finding a challenge that keeps them going. Having an immortal leadership will make it next to impossible to rise to the top of the power structure, causing resentment among the younger generations, at least in autocratic or plutocratic societies. In democratic societies it's the bureaucracy that will choke progress, since usually there are no safeguards like term limits for bureaucrats. The only thing that might keep such an empire from falling is an eternal conflict with a force equally as powerful. And even then it may happen anyway as both sides will get weary of fighting, possibly resorting to proxy wars using younger races as pawns. Another problem would be overpopulation and declining birthrates as a result, which limits the ability to gain new perspectives. Arrogance and decadence would also contribute to stagnation.

Edit:

The problem is that by definition, the ascension perks are designed to show your species is on their way to ascend. Ascending in the cosmic sense tends to imply a species that is beyond the mortal constraints originally placed upon it. Those that have reached the peak of mental ascension would have become one with the universe, they would in essence become like Q or so beyond our reality that they've literally moved on. Those that have biologically ascended would become so perfect in form as well as able to manipulate and seed worlds to the point they would become the new creators of the cosmos. They could survive on any world, adapt to any condition and become immortal, in essence they would become the new trans-galactic space sludge free to explore and view all of reality. The same could be said for a mechanical ascension, except instead of spreading and seeding and altering the universe, your species would be able to density itself and in essence would become the new infinity machine. A perfect traveling machine able to learn all there is in the universe.

A species that has stagnated like the Fallen Empires are by definition the empires that did NOT know how to ascend. They might have studied and learned every trait there is but the one that has eluded them, or the one they've been too afraid to do is the one that truly lets them ascend. An FE represents the troubles of a species that has long since reached the pinnacle of greatness, who has studied all there is to know and found themselves with no idea what to do next. They've either taken so long to get to where they are that ascension is just no longer possible, or they're too stubborn in their ways or they simply can't conceive of a way to push past the bonds of their mortal forms.

This seems to me the best explanation for ascension, though I think there should be a last perk that ends the game. If ascension means what you think, and I agree that it should, then the second perk is not the end of the line. Because at that point the species has not yet become truly ascended, since they are still somewhat tied to mortal affairs.

 

[Felfox]

Not necessarily, immortality is often both a blessing and a curse. An immortal species really only has a few options that don't lead to becoming a fallen empire or disappearing completely. And that's by finding a challenge that keeps them going. Having an immortal leadership will make it next to impossible to rise to the top of the power structure, causing resentment among the younger generations, at least in autocratic or plutocratic societies. In democratic societies it's the bureaucracy that will choke progress, since usually there are no safeguards like term limits for bureaucrats. The only thing that might keep such an empire from falling is an eternal conflict with a force equally as powerful. And even then it may happen anyway as both sides will get weary of fighting, possibly resorting to proxy wars using younger races as pawns. Another problem would be overpopulation and declining birthrates as a result, which limits the ability to gain new perspectives. Arrogance and decadence would also contribute to stagnation.

Actually I entirely agree with you hah, I was just trying to explain how ascension in the scope of this game was meant to represent the passing on of one's initial species into a new state of being. Personally I believe only the mental/psionic ascension would actually lead to true ascension since it's the only one where the final outcome represents moving past the corporeal state. Biological perfection could theoretically lead to a cellular perfection/sensitivity so grand that it lets you literally interact with the fabric of reality and thus pass on, and being free of constraints could lead a mechanical society the freedom to calculate and realize every secret of the universe that they are eventually able to pass on as well.

But yes, immortality is very much a double edged sword that could slow and even halt the flow of new ideas which in turn would cause the stagnation of society.

A great example I can think of from a Star Trek book was a species that had reached a mental and biological perfection and were on the brink of ascension but couldn't figure out the last step. They had turned their star into a dyson sphere, they had perfected their world into a paradise and unlocked technology that others could only dream of. And yet, they had existed, immortal and alone without any outside interaction (Because they had no wish in being nagged for their tech/dragged into politics they considered beneath them.) for eons, mapping the universe and trying to find any other race or remnants that could hint how to move on. They were aware of the omnipotent Q and other god like beings but for their part simply didn't know how they had achieved such a state.

They were basically a fallen empire, isolated from other races but unable to grasp the last key component to their existence. So they watched, and watched, and waited, and did nothing beyond look for clues without ever leaving their planet or ever talking to any other species until naturally the protagonist came crashing to their world.

The point of the ascension perks/trees is to highlight a species that is on their way to becoming more than their initial corporeal selves but by no means is the final step (Though I'd be curious to see my people suddenly vanish into cosmic beings and the power vacuum that would ensue from the other races) Not choosing the ascension perks just means your species is taking longer, which in turn could be seen that they are becoming a fallen empire. On the other hand, the craziness that is your galaxy may simply require that your species put ascension on hold and thus those non-ascension perks are very lucrative towards your survival as a whole. You can't ascend if you're wiped out before-hand after all.

Also as seen with Awakened Empires, just because you're fallen for an eternity, doesn't mean you're doomed forever. Sometimes a little kick in the pants is what a species might need to realize they've been thinking about it wrong and it's time to get going!

 

[Drowe]

Actually I entirely agree with you hah, I was just trying to explain how ascension in the scope of this game was meant to represent the passing on of one's initial species into a new state of being. Personally I believe only the mental/psionic ascension would actually lead to true ascension since it's the only one where the final outcome represents moving past the corporeal state. Biological perfection could theoretically lead to a cellular perfection/sensitivity so grand that it lets you literally interact with the fabric of reality and thus pass on, and being free of constraints could lead a mechanical society the freedom to calculate and realize every secret of the universe that they are eventually able to pass on as well.

But yes, immortality is very much a double edged sword that could slow and even halt the flow of new ideas which in turn would cause the stagnation of society.

A great example I can think of from a Star Trek book was a species that had reached a mental and biological perfection and were on the brink of ascension but couldn't figure out the last step. They had turned their star into a dyson sphere, they had perfected their world into a paradise and unlocked technology that others could only dream of. And yet, they had existed, immortal and alone without any outside interaction (Because they had no wish in being nagged for their tech/dragged into politics they considered beneath them.) for eons, mapping the universe and trying to find any other race or remnants that could hint how to move on. They were aware of the omnipotent Q and other god like beings but for their part simply didn't know how they had achieved such a state.

They were basically a fallen empire, isolated from other races but unable to grasp the last key component to their existence. So they watched, and watched, and waited, and did nothing beyond look for clues without ever leaving their planet or ever talking to any other species until naturally the protagonist came crashing to their world.

The point of the ascension perks/trees is to highlight a species that is on their way to becoming more than their initial corporeal selves but by no means is the final step (Though I'd be curious to see my people suddenly vanish into cosmic beings and the power vacuum that would ensue from the other races) Not choosing the ascension perks just means your species is taking longer, which in turn could be seen that they are becoming a fallen empire. On the other hand, the craziness that is your galaxy may simply require that your species put ascension on hold and thus those non-ascension perks are very lucrative towards your survival as a whole. You can't ascend if you're wiped out before-hand after all.

Also as seen with Awakened Empires, just because you're fallen for an eternity, doesn't mean you're doomed forever. Sometimes a little kick in the pants is what a species might need to realize they've been thinking about it wrong and it's time to get going!

Yes, that's what I was thinking more or less. The ascension perks, while important, are not the end of the line, just some steps in the direction of ascendency. There are still big steps to be taken, dealing with immortality is one of them. Only if you can live forever and still find meaning in life and goals to achieve can you ever ascend to a higher plane of existence. I think immortality is one of the bigger obstacles to ascending but a prerequisite at the same time.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

It occurs to me that at least 2, maybe 3, Fallen Empires could launch with full ascension paths.

In fact, I am now very on board with "Keepers of Secret Knowledge" being Synthetics who demand that you outlaw artificial intelligence research.

They could take the worlds that "Holy Guardians" protect and give them some tie into the Shroud.

 

[The Founder]

The problem is that by definition, the ascension perks are designed to show your species is on their way to ascend. Ascending in the cosmic sense tends to imply a species that is beyond the mortal constraints originally placed upon it.

You mean they are beyond "trivial" things, such as expanding thier borders. Viewing the non-Ascended newcommers (in particular those guys that use to be Pre-FTL) as more then a fleeting curiosity. And generally behaving like a Fallen Empire does?

 

[Crenickator]

I get what you're saying but look at it this way, the reason you strive towards ascendance and change yourself is because you acknowledge that your current form is flawed and constrained by nature. There's nothing wrong with taking your time towards ascendance, heck there's nothing to say your species didn't ascend after you've already won (which is why I'd love to see a bunch of things alongside ascendance) However the fact remains that eventually your species will reach at least one of these three states or they'll stagnate like a fallen empire.

And another version of ascendance is acknowledging that your flawed, constrained form IS perfect. You could argue that ascending into a perfect form is the path to a Fallen Empire because once "perfect", what is there to strive against, to strive for? A species can understand that their imperfections are a boon to drive them to accomplishment within their individually limited spans.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

In fact, I am now very on board with "Keepers of Secret Knowledge" being Synthetics who demand that you outlaw artificial intelligence research.

I think that that makes no sense, I'd be in favor of a Synthetic FE as an alternate form of Materialist Fallen Empires(indeed more flavors of FEs would be nice in general), but not as a replacement to the current anti-AI one(my head cannon for them is that they date back to the time of the Cybrix precursor event chain and that's the reason for their attitude).

though if you end up in a galaxy with both a War in Heaven between them is inevitable...

actually having the Cybrix have a tiny chance of still being alive when you find their Ringworld and them being a sort of hybrid of Fallen Empire and Enclave traders/custodians would be cool(many parts of their event chain implies they became peaceful/regretful of their genocidal actions and allowed themselves to be destroyed when they were rediscovered, so if they'd never been fond they'd just be hanging out on their ringworld doing nothing)... actually having some alternate endings to all the precursor paths would be nice.

 

[SevenSerpents]

I think that that makes no sense, I'd be in favor of a Synthetic FE as an alternate form of Materialist Fallen Empires(indeed more flavors of FEs would be nice in general), but not as a replacement to the current anti-AI one(my head cannon for them is that they date back to the time of the Cybrix precursor event chain and that's the reason for their attitude).

though if you end up in a galaxy with both a War in Heaven between them is inevitable...

actually having the Cybrix have a tiny chance of still being alive when you find their Ringworld and them being a sort of hybrid of Fallen Empire and Enclave traders/custodians would be cool(many parts of their event chain implies they became peaceful/regretful of their genocidal actions and allowed themselves to be destroyed when they were rediscovered, so if they'd never been fond they'd just be hanging out on their ringworld doing nothing)... actually having some alternate endings to all the precursor paths would be nice.

Keepers don't like Jump drives either, so it's more likely they're just knowledgeable in regard to crises in general.