Alternatives to Ascension

[Foefaller]

I think that it's worth noting that you don't have to go all the way and take the second ascension perk.

Maybe your empire is satisfied with just being cyborgs. Empire-wide Lifespan and Habitability boost is nothing to sneeze at, especially if luck of the draw/syncretic evolution means you already have pops that can compete with synths in certain resources.

Also, keep in mind that there are other ascension perks, and you have a limited number of slots. If what we've seen in the livestreams haven't changed, to be able to do all the new content (Habitats, Megastructures, and an Ascension path) you're talking 5 of 8 ascension slots, or at least four fully unlocked traditions + the ascension perk tech one of the devs shown on twitter, not to mention others related to things like cheaper terraforming and bonuses to crisis and FAs competing for a chance to be used.

 

[zukodark]

The Jedi are too small to be represented by psychic pops, and would be better represented by some kind of civic or perk that lets you recruit a limited number of psi-warriors without having the tech.

Well, I'd argue Jedi is to some degree represented by the first psychic perk, as it gives your populace potential to be a psychic, but only a few is. It even grants you the ability to create psionic armies, and psionic corps building lowering empire unrest (jedi temple).

 

[Crenickator]

There seems to be several ascension perks that might be suitable for a "pure" species. I think the main difference between ascension paths and other perks is that paths focus on changing your citizenry and opening some new options, while perks mainly grants empire-wide bonuses, the latter which suits a purity game much better, in my opinion. Of course then there is megastructures, in addition.

I'm probably mangling my terminology because I haven't seen how everything fits together with my own eyes, only screenshots and dev diaries. The game mechanics might work out fine for empires that don't choose an ascension path, but what I don't want is for it to be a significant handicap to forgo it, when there are so many examples of the unwilling and the unable to ascend in various ways.

 

[Emraldis]

I'm probably mangling my terminology because I haven't seen how everything fits together with my own eyes, only screenshots and dev diaries. The game mechanics might work out fine for empires that don't choose an ascension path, but what I don't want is for it to be a significant handicap to forgo it, when there are so many examples of the unwilling and the unable to ascend in various ways.

I doubt it will be. You get 2 extra ascension perks over those who take one of the ascension paths, and ascension perks in general are a pretty decent buff.

 

[tangled axile]

Without psi ascension, you can still get the 'Psionic Theory' tech, which allows the "PSI Warriors" army attachment. (That's even a prerequisite for the first step in the ascension path, iirc).

This is actually perfectly suited for the Jedi example - when they WERE involved in warfare, they were in small squads leading/accompanying actual armies (or squads on covert ops missions, which are sadly not a thing yet). There couldn't be whole armies of Jedi because there simply weren't enough of them, they were super rare relative to the overall population.

Continuing the Star Wars analogy, psi ascension is like becoming one of those small obscure side species where EVERYONE'S force sensitive. Completing psi ascension is like that race advancing to the point where they're all 'naturally' powerful force users.

We can debate whether the first 'psionic theory' tech should be spiritualist-exclusive, but even that's so easily moddable that it's kind of a moot point. As is, I think the planned system works really nicely - before psi ascension, psionics are this really rare thing, and the psi ascension path is all about a massive societal effort to expand that and 'awaken' more and more of the species, honing those powers, so you can do more awesome things with them. (The only thing that doesn't QUITE fit this is the 'Psychic' leader trait not appearing yet when you've only got psionic theory - but presumably that can be hand-waved as them being considerably more powerful and advanced than the psi commando squads, and only really developing as the whole empire devotes itself towards expanding their collective psionic potential.)

 

[zukodark]

I'm probably mangling my terminology because I haven't seen how everything fits together with my own eyes, only screenshots and dev diaries. The game mechanics might work out fine for empires that don't choose an ascension path, but what I don't want is for it to be a significant handicap to forgo it, when there are so many examples of the unwilling and the unable to ascend in various ways.

For example, "One Vision", "Mastery of Nature", "Interstellar Dominion", "Reach for the Stars" and "Imperial Prerogative" all sounds fitting, ignoring the megastructures. I would say most empires, unless especially unity focused, would only get 4-5 perks until end game, and then it would be a very slow pace. Using ascension paths, that would only leave you two or three additional perks.

If you want to be megastructure-focused, you'd probably pick "Master Builders" for efficiency's sake, leaving and two or three megastructure perks.

This thread was quite useful as it gathered some unmentioned perks: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...eatures-gathered-from-17-09-02-stream.998862/

 

[Surimi]

Yeah, I'm kind of not seeing how these perks are essential.

Like, you could take biological ascension and engineer your pops to be super smart and get a bonus to science tile yields, or you could just take the technological ascendency perk (which gives, if I remember, a 10% overall science boost - meaning space resources as well) and then get another perk to boot. If anything, the ascension perks seem like a huge sacrifice when you consider what you're actually giving up, because it doesn't seem like you're going to unlock that many slots in the typical game.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

From a pure research standpoint maybe. But with your bonuses to gene modifying, you can also tweak loyal populations to different habitat tolerances to fill in those Alpines you couldn't colonize before. You can tweak populations into incredible mineral producers and energy producers. You get gene warriors to engage in superior land warfare.

Gene modifying allows you to trade effort for a grandly more efficient empire across the board while also letting you feel like a mad scientist. Well worth a 10% overall science boost plus whatever else you get with the second pick. Or at least, I assume. We'll see if the sector AI is significantly better. My opinion changes entirely if proles start manning research labs in your sectors.

 

[Drakonn]

Good ideas can have bad execution. I'd say shunning ascension having no uniqueness is one of them.



I got ya. But thinking that requires the whole population being on board with it, and no ascension is for races/societies where that won't ever be the case. Such a government can still utilize the benefits of individuals being free to pursue ascension on their own without making it a matter of policy, and you'll end up with something like the Star Wars Republic with Jedi (psionics), droids, and various levels of genetically engineered and non-engineered races coming together to form one state. A nation like that is not probably ever going to come around to one and only one method of ascension, but you can't say it doesn't have at least some of the advantages of all of them.

I believe Wiz has stated on twitter that certain factions of the populace (Spiritualists) will not enjoy the robot conversion but that and other interactions he wants to add like that won't make in for Banks.

Edit: Added link. https://twitter.com/Martin_Anward/status/837373471193587712

and I'll agree that Beyond Earth had some good ideas. I loved the purity play in that.

 

[zukodark]

Beyond Earth (especially with Rising Tide) had quite a lot of good features in it. Though the problems broke it early, and ensured it would never be salvaged. The sponsors were characterless, the traditions were characterless (to avoid conflict with affinities), the technology web was not executed well, the landscapes were monotone in color, are just some examples of its plentiful flaws. Though it did indeed have some good ideas.

 

[terrycloth]

Beyond Earth (especially with Rising Tide) had quite a lot of good features in it. Though the problems broke it early, and ensured it would never be salvaged. The sponsors were characterless, the traditions were characterless (to avoid conflict with affinities), the technology web was not executed well, the landscapes were monotone in color, are just some examples of its plentiful flaws. Though it did indeed have some good ideas.

The only real problem Beyond Earth had was a really stupid warfare AI (I'm not sure it was physically possible for the AI to ever take a city, even against another AI), which ruined the game for some people. I mostly play civ games as more of a sandbox with the AI not meant to be a huge threat, and the AI was good enough for that. It's one of my favorite civ games.

As for the original topic... the plan as shown is that you get bonuses for not taking an ascension path -- you get to pick two additional perks.

You could have an explicit 'I am not going to take an ascension path' bonus but it would have to be attached to an ascension perk. Something like,
'Dedication to Purity' -- Disables all ascension paths. Disables genetic engineering. Disables robots. Disables psionics. +20% happiness and empire ethics attraction. (or whatever... and the 'or whatever' is the problem with having a perk like this, people would want different things)
'Dedication to Diversity' -- Disables all ascension paths. +25% genetic engineering speed. -10% robot upkeep. Enables researching some minor psionic techs.

 

[faljen_isus]

i dont know about you, but i am seriously underwhelmed by bio and tech ascension paths

maybe cause the psionic ascension is off the charts awesome...

 

[The Founder]

Maybe your empire is satisfied with just being cyborgs. Empire-wide Lifespan and Habitability boost is nothing to sneeze at, especially if luck of the draw/syncretic evolution means you already have pops that can compete with synths in certain resources.

Depending on how T2 Technological Ascension works out - in particular if uSynths carry positive traits of the origin species - just going T1 seems highly feasible. In particular the idea of a immortal Ruler does not sit well with me.
I would see not that much incentive to go full upload if that means loosing everything that makes my empire unique.

Well, I'd argue Jedi is to some degree represented by the first psychic perk, as it gives your populace potential to be a psychic, but only a few is. It even grants you the ability to create psionic armies, and psionic corps building lowering empire unrest (jedi temple).

I find the Jedi a perfect example of a Spiritualist Soceity.
"There is no death, only the force". Sounds like a afterlife idea all right.
The whole concept of Darkside and light side is about Good and Evil. And how it relates to the afterlife. Something every religion ever dealt with.

i dont know about you, but i am seriously underwhelmed by bio and tech ascension paths

maybe cause the psionic ascension is off the charts awesome...

The only diference is the shroud mechanic, of wich we know next to nothing. It will propably be interesting for a while, until someone figures out all the paths. Then it is just like the Enigmatic Fortress.
These things have to be engaging from thier Mechanics perspective, not some fleeting lore perspective. Can you actually tell me the Psionic Ascension Mechanics are any more engagin then teh Biological Path ones?

 

[Bayes]

Alternative to ascension? What about more ascension alternatives?

 

[Foefaller]

i dont know about you, but i am seriously underwhelmed by bio and tech ascension paths

maybe cause the psionic ascension is off the charts awesome...

As Wiz said, Bio and Synthetic are adding to systems already in place, gene modding and roboitics.

There is no special base system for Psionics, just a line of techs that ended with the best FTL in the game.

 

[SevenSerpents]

The only diference is the shroud mechanic, of wich we know next to nothing. It will propably be interesting for a while, until someone figures out all the paths. Then it is just like the Enigmatic Fortress.

The shroud doesn't seem to be an event chain, it seems to give you a random chance of getting specific things and is outright described as an entirely new mechanic. Comparing it to the enigmatic fortress in particular is especially distasteful as you're comparing something that can pull shit like the End of the Cycle (which gets its own "do not do this" tooltip) to just one mediocre part of a story pack.

I don't know if it'll be as cool as other people are hyping, but the variety of things that can happen from it we've seen in teasers so far (converting your leaders into energy beings, summoning orbital "avatars," whatever the hell end of the Cycle does) already seems much more engaging than just the flat bonuses of synth ascension and genemodding potential of bio ascension.

 

[Emraldis]

As Wiz said, Bio and Synthetic are adding to systems already in place, gene modding and roboitics.

There is no special base system for Psionics, just a line of techs that ended with the best FTL in the game.

Yeah, but where psionics before just kind of fell behind the other two a bit, since it was generally lacking any real ingame effect, it now far outstrips the other two in terms of mechanical content. It gets a whole massive chain of events, leader upgrades, tech upgrades, ship upgrades, pop upgrades, effects that can cause a whole bunch of fun and crazy stuff. On the other hand, bio ascension got a decent improvement to genemodding, which is equivalent to leader and pop upgrades, and synthetic got... what? Not having to purge anyone after you built robots everywhere (pop upgrade I guess)? Slight leader upgrade? I guess they both got some resistance events as well, but since they got those across the board that's not really bonus points for anyone.

TL;DR:
Psionics went from least interesting to by far the most interesting and developed mechanic out of all of them.

If they'd added the ability for bioascension empires to create brand new species, and change portraits, I'd consider the whole thing a lot closer (at least between those two, synths would still be really far behind).

 

[scaper12123]

Ascension is the endgame for species. If you don't want to take your species to its endgame, there are plenty of other things you can do with them. So far we've seen things like orbital habitats and megastructures for expanding your empire territory. I also think they've mentioned/hinted at a terraforming endgame (possibly making gaia-formation easier). that's all I can think of off the top of my head, but what they have is pretty exciting.

 

[AmpsterMan]

I think this is how my first game will go. Cybernetic implants without going full robot as well as some gene modification to get rid of imperfections in the genome.

 

[Xoatl]

I would say that I'm worried about the balance of a choice like foregoing ascension entirely. But on the other hand, Paradox's Grand Strategy Games have always had flavorful but sub-optimal play styles and starting positions as a feature. And... now I want to play a species that's incapable of ascension, like the Overlords of Childhood's End.

Still though, a weird hybrid ascension for fanatic egalitarians does sound pretty cool. I'm not sure how they'd show it in game and the text for the mechanical ascension and shroud ascension paths do make half measures seem improbable. But still.

Hybrids would be fun. I'm optimistic that there will be a mod to unlock the first of the two levels of each ascension so only the last levels are mutually exclusive from one another. Cyborg latent psychics would be a strange combination but it might be fun, considering it isn't 100% of the POPs it might make that a rare combination. I could imagine combing through POPs for both traits and send them all to a ring world or something. With the bio Ascension only the 2nd level unlocks special traits so hybriding with bio wouldn't be too strange imo.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but level one synth AP immediately turns all POPs into cyborgs? Seems kind of drastic, maybe it should say some of you POPs are beginning to experiment with cybernetics?