Alternatives to Ascension

[Crenickator]

I am thrilled for the planned Ascension perks, but feel like we're missing one or more alternatives for those races who don't want to turn themselves into robots, genetically-engineered super species, or energy beings. Something similar to the Purity alignment from Civ: Beyond Earth, and to a lesser extent Banks' own The Culture. Put more simply, a path where races don't want to fundamentally change themselves entirely, as the Purity wished not to abandon their roots in humanity, and the Culture is wary of things like Ascension to a higher plane, while neither is beyond using robotics or genetics to improve their standard of living.
I could just be reading the updates wrong, but it seems like an Ascension path is a requirement, and I'd like to see specifically not choosing one being akin to its own form of Ascension path, and sort of be a jack of all trades where psionics, robotics, and genetics are utilized in unison, with none taken to their Ascended ends. I feel this would also mesh well with Fanatic Individualist ethos, for it should be up to the individuals to decide what Ascension they feel is correct, without anyone imposing it upon them.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Ascension Paths are by no means required. They're optional- one of many things you can invest Ascension Perks into. If you don't like them, dedicate those two slots to something else- like building Ringworlds and Dyson Spheres, etc.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I would say that I'm worried about the balance of a choice like foregoing ascension entirely. But on the other hand, Paradox's Grand Strategy Games have always had flavorful but sub-optimal play styles and starting positions as a feature. And... now I want to play a species that's incapable of ascension, like the Overlords of Childhood's End.

Still though, a weird hybrid ascension for fanatic egalitarians does sound pretty cool. I'm not sure how they'd show it in game and the text for the mechanical ascension and shroud ascension paths do make half measures seem improbable. But still.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

Still though, a weird hybrid ascension for fanatic egalitarians does sound pretty cool.

This actually reminds me of a good point- Fanatic Egalitarian isn't really the same thing as Fanatic Individualist.

The Collectivist/Individualist axis doesn't exist anymore- Authoritarian/Egalitarian is more about a divide between "authority by virtue of governance vs. authority from the populace".

 

[Jabby]

I think what would be better is if you could choose as many ascension paths as you want Or you can complete one completely. So you could have psionic cyborg gene warriors

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

I think what would be better is if you could choose as many ascension paths as you want Or you can complete one completely. So you could have psionic cyborg gene warriors

There'll be a mod that allows that the same day as Utopia releases, don't worry.

 

[Crenickator]

This actually reminds me of a good point- Fanatic Egalitarian isn't really the same thing as Fanatic Individualist.

The Collectivist/Individualist axis doesn't exist anymore- Authoritarian/Egalitarian is more about a divide between "authority by virtue of governance vs. authority from the populace".

I had forgotten about that change, but egalitarianism works just as well, I think. The point being that the governing authority doesn't have the right to declare "We're all ascending now."

I would say that I'm worried about the balance of a choice like foregoing ascension entirely. But on the other hand, Paradox's Grand Strategy Games have always had flavorful but sub-optimal play styles and starting positions as a feature. And... now I want to play a species that's incapable of ascension, like the Overlords of Childhood's End.

Still though, a weird hybrid ascension for fanatic egalitarians does sound pretty cool. I'm not sure how they'd show it in game and the text for the mechanical ascension and shroud ascension paths do make half measures seem improbable. But still.

Pretty much my exact thought. I was under the mistaken impression they were a requirement, or at least a severe hampering if you didn't choose one, and wanted a middle ground to make the option more favorable if Ascension is unwanted or unattainable. Lots more examples of that in Sci Fi than what's been mentioned here.

 

[Jabby]

There'll be a mod that allows that the same day as Utopia releases, don't worry.

I was thinking the same thing

 

[Fourthspartan56]

I think what would be better is if you could choose as many ascension paths as you want Or you can complete one completely. So you could have psionic cyborg gene warriors

This would be a poor idea IMO, the whole point is that each path is distinct and your entire society marches down one path to allow a mixture would just cheapen the entire thing.

 

[Ixal]

So when you do not want to ascend you have an earlier access to Megastructures or better terraforming as you can spend your perks on that.

What exactly do you think is missing?

 

[Crenickator]

So when you do not want to ascend you have an earlier access to Megastructures or better terraforming as you can spend your perks on that.

What exactly do you think is missing?

An endgame. Ascensions offer paths with additional rewards, features and unique perks. Choosing no ascension should be its own ascension, so to speak, with similar rewards, features, and perks. Having access to other perks that are already available to the other ascension paths isn't much of a reward. I mention Purity from Civ: BE as one of the best examples of this because their philosophy is essentially "Ascend to ourselves". They need not strive towards some far off goal, be it the Shroud, an immortal AI consciousness, or the be-all end-all of biological manipulation. They attained the stars with the forms and minds given to them by fate and chance, and that is not to be discarded when inconvenient. It is not technically ascending, and yet it is, and I think a perk line embodying this would greatly improve an already great looking system.

 

[Derp]

Yes, the noble high road, where you shun these crazy new ideas and just keep on keepin' on. Which is perfectly represented by... no unique bonuses.

Also Civ BE had all the soul of a cardboard cutout so I don't think it's a very good source for inspiration.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I had forgotten about that change, but egalitarianism works just as well, I think. The point being that the governing authority doesn't have the right to declare "We're all ascending now."

No, by the time your egalitarian society is ready for this your president will say, "I stand here now with the leader of the opposition party and the almost full backing of our congress because this is not about parties, this is not about government, this is about bridging the digital divide that threatens to forever put the promise of prosperity, happiness, and a brighter tomorrow out of the hands of our least privileged people. Cybernetics is a right and by all moving forward together, we can remain a strong, independent people."

And then of course everyone cheers because it's been well established, at this stage, that cybernetics is the way of the future and we all feel kind of bad for those sad miserable hillbillies who can't afford cybernetics. And sure, it's not the libertarian thing to do, but even the most fanatically libertarian has to recognize that the economy will be far more efficient and fair if we don't have to keep slowing things down for people whose internal organs haven't been reinforced with titanium.

Remember your ascension perk isn't the point in which cybernetics becomes available to your population, it's the point in which cybernetics becomes a freely available enhancement to all citizens that will also be necessary to function fully in society. I'd compare it to reading or access to the internet at this stage, cybernetic ascension is equivalent to the point in western society where we decided that a basic education is a right, not just a good idea, and that our society can be built around the idea that most people can read. Or, the point where we are rapidly reaching, the stage in western society where we decided that having access to the internet was essential to living your life to its fullest.

 

[Crenickator]

Yes, the noble high road, where you shun these crazy new ideas and just keep on keepin' on. Which is perfectly represented by... no unique bonuses.

Also Civ BE had all the soul of a cardboard cutout so I don't think it's a very good source for inspiration.

Good ideas can have bad execution. I'd say shunning ascension having no uniqueness is one of them.

No, by the time your egalitarian society is ready for this your president will say, "I stand here now with the leader of the opposition party and the almost full backing of our congress because this is not about parties, this is not about government, this is about bridging the digital divide that threatens to forever put the promise of prosperity, happiness, and a brighter tomorrow out of the hands of our least privileged people. Cybernetics is a right and by all moving forward together, we can remain a strong, independent people."

Remember your ascension perk isn't the point in which cybernetics becomes available to your population, it's the point in which cybernetics becomes a freely available enhancement to all citizens that will also be necessary to function fully in society. I'd compare it to reading at this stage, cybernetic ascension is equivalent to the point in western society where we decided that a basic education is a right, not just a good idea, and that our society can be built around the idea that most people can read.

I got ya. But thinking that requires the whole population being on board with it, and no ascension is for races/societies where that won't ever be the case. Such a government can still utilize the benefits of individuals being free to pursue ascension on their own without making it a matter of policy, and you'll end up with something like the Star Wars Republic with Jedi (psionics), droids, and various levels of genetically engineered and non-engineered races coming together to form one state. A nation like that is not probably ever going to come around to one and only one method of ascension, but you can't say it doesn't have at least some of the advantages of all of them.

 

[The Founder]

Ascension Paths are by no means required. They're optional- one of many things you can invest Ascension Perks into. If you don't like them, dedicate those two slots to something else- like building Ringworlds and Dyson Spheres, etc.

Considering the Ascension Perks and the Megastructure Perks take up slot 2 and 4, one could even consider Megastructure a minor ascension path.

But yes, nothing forces you go those ways. Indeed you only got 8 Slots maximum*. 2 of them are taken up by Ascension Perks, that is two other perks you could not take.

*Even getting 4 might be a challenge, actually. Tradition costs increase linerary, while there is only one slot to be gained from tech.

 

[Dandere]

I am thrilled for the planned Ascension perks, but feel like we're missing one or more alternatives for those races who don't want to turn themselves into robots, genetically-engineered super species, or energy beings. Something similar to the Purity alignment from Civ: Beyond Earth, and to a lesser extent Banks' own The Culture.

The Culture was an AI ascendancy... with pets.

 

[Crenickator]

The Culture was an AI ascendancy... with pets.

Heh. Yes, there's room for interpretation. Trying to throw out as many examples as I can to point out what I mean. Every member of their society didn't trade in their body for a mechanical one, even if the government was comprised of them, and I liked that they were not unable to ascend, but unwilling. It goes back to what I said that even if they haven't embraced only one ascension fully, they can have smaller benefits from going slightly down the path of all of them.

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

But thinking that requires the whole population being on board with it, and no ascension is for races/societies where that won't ever be the case.

No but that's exactly it. This ascension perk, put together after the accumulation of 5 traditions worth of Unity, represents that such a significantly large part of your society is on board with it, that those who aren't on board are a irrelevant minority, a quirk. They are the Amish, look at them in their funny hats with their wagons and buggies. Buy a cabinet from them if you want, but in terms of societal development, they are a dead-end we tolerate because we are good people who respect the choice they've made.

To address the idea of split ascensions in this specific context, we also don't get alot in the way of new research or revelations from the Amish even in fields that they practice regularly. They farm, without any real improvements over the last 100 years. Meanwhile mainstream ag-corporations are constantly improving. They breed horses, without any real improvements over the last 100 years. Meanwhile, mainstream, "mainstream?" horse breeders are producing world record breakers ever decade. They raise barns, without any real improvement over the last 100 years. Meanwhile, mainstream farm habitation construction now does custom work that would put them to shame, and prefab work at a fraction of the cost.

Now, I say this as someone who still thinks the idea of hybrid ascension or even a chaotic mixed ascension might be fun if done right. But it's gonna have to be its own path, and whether it's a good addition to the game will have to be decided on its own merits. And it won't be Purity from CIV:BE which is a much better game than people give it credit for.

Purity is the first half of biological ascension, the one that just gives you 2 points and Gene Warriors, and then using that remaining choice for Mastery of Nature for the terraforming boosts.

 

[Derp]

I'd say shunning ascension having no uniqueness is one of them.

There's no uniqueness because there isn't supposed to be. It's clearly an intentional design decision on Paradox's part, and just because you think it's bad doesn't mean everyone else does.

ou'll end up with something like the Star Wars Republic with Jedi (psionics), droids, and various levels of genetically engineered and non-engineered races coming together to form one state.

None of which actually requires what ascension paths represent.

You can build droids and gene-engineer without ascension perks. The Jedi are too small to be represented by psychic pops, and would be better represented by some kind of civic or perk that lets you recruit a limited number of psi-warriors without having the tech.

 

[zukodark]

There seems to be several ascension perks that might be suitable for a "pure" species. I think the main difference between ascension paths and other perks is that paths focus on changing your citizenry and opening some new options, while perks mainly grants empire-wide bonuses, the latter which suits a purity game much better, in my opinion. Of course then there is megastructures, in addition.