Alternative history becoming too invasive?

[Theodorian]

Yes. It has become too invasive.

As an amateur historian of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, I can tell you that the likelihood of it ever returning is asinine at best and deplorable at worst, especially only 20 years later. Hungary would never have initiated that political maneuver and Austria was not interested in such a thing.

Now we are looking at a rather implausible Second American Civil War?

Hearts of Iron 4 is now a game where more rules than not are necessary to get an even semi-historical experience.

 

[hkrommel]

As long as the alternative history is plausible I don't have much problems with it.

Communist Japan.

Regarding OP I agree. It does seem that the focus of new development has been primarily on alternate history as of late. Just look at the launch trailer for the new DLC, it's all about a USA vs. CSA naval conflict!

 

[Ryousan2k]

The "What if" will ever be more plentiful than "What actually happened"

Im content as long it has some basis on reality, let`s get real my friends: This is a game where you can do a Luxemburg World Conquest. I think 2nd Civil War, Kaiserreich and Hapsburg Empire are minor compared to that

 

[hkrommel]

The "What if" will ever be more plentiful than "What actually happened"

Im content as long it has some basis on reality, let`s get real my friends: This is a game where you can do a Luxemburg World Conquest. I think 2nd Civil War, Kaiserreich and Hapsburg Empire are minor compared to that

Dumb thing X is already possible, so that justifies adding dumb things Y and Z! Y and Z here being 2CW and Hapsburgs, not the Kaiserreich as that was extremely improbable (particularly by 1936) but not in the same league as the others.

 

[a_sophist]

The "What if" will ever be more plentiful than "What actually happened"

Im content as long it has some basis on reality, let`s get real my friends: This is a game where you can do a Luxemburg World Conquest. I think 2nd Civil War, Kaiserreich and Hapsburg Empire are minor compared to that

Though I agree that Luxembourg being allowed to do anything is odd, there's a difference between a player maximizing skill and knowledge of the game to create ahistorical outcomes and content development time being spent offering them when the game still fails to represent critical aspects of the war its based on.

 

[Ryousan2k]

Dumb thing X is already possible, so that justifies adding dumb things Y and Z! Y and Z here being 2CW and Hapsburgs, not the Kaiserreich as that was extremely improbable (particularly by 1936) but not in the same league as the others.

It should give you an Idea of what you signed for when you acquired this game: Outladish scenarios have been here from Day 1. And judging by the popularity of Mods like Kaiserreich, they well liked by the Player Base. "If big Dumb X is already possible, the not so dumb Y& Z are expected to follow."

 

[Ryousan2k]

Though I agree that Luxembourg being allowed to do anything is odd, there's a difference between a player maximizing skill and knowledge of the game to create ahistorical outcomes and content development time being spent offering them when the game still fails to represent critical aspects of the war its based on.

The thing is that I dont see how they are mutually exclusive. Certainly the game need to iron out some problems (some serious problems) but they can do that while proving interesting alternative scenarios

 

[MVPBluntman]

It's an option. Whats wrong with (keyword here) Alternative Scenarios. Hell you can even start a war with Russia after you finish off Germany. I don't mind as long as they dont take anything away from the scenarios that actually happened, and even improve upon them at the same time even.

 

[Huandor]

Currently I don't like the ahistorical path, it just does not work, no challenge at all. GER going democratic? - Monopoly is more interesting then.
GER doing Kaiserreich? OK, they get delayed that much, boring again.
USA going fascist? Who is going to fight them? The UK vs USA, GER and Jap? That is just a roflstomp.

There are some mods with some really nice alternate Focus. But their AI is all shit. They cover it by a ton of even more shitty events.

If I'd like to see some more variances, yes, of course.
More Designers, more advisors, more differences in models of tanks and aircrafts. To really make different buildups possible, with following different strategies.
Creating designers, creating Fighterbombers, long range transports, coring states, improving advisors and military staff.
I'd like to see differences between Bf109 and spitfire, between PzIV and T34. I'd like to see a Bismarck can't do shit vs a Midway.

And if ahistorical focus, I don't want to decide at the start of the game, I'd like to be challenged by the game itself, so I can pick the fitting focus then.
I'd like to build up the lend lease by allies to SOV, by capturing Persia, by securing see lanes to Vladivostok and Murmansk - but during Ice free times only.
I'd like to see Japan taking the Pacific, Singapur, Malaya and closing in on Australia.

I'd like to see the AI doing some crazy stuff, astonishing me. If that all works, I am open for ahistorical stuff.

 

[MVPBluntman]

Agreed the AI Does need improvements

 

[safe-keeper]

It's an option. Whats wrong with (keyword here) Alternative Scenarios. Hell you can even start a war with Russia after you finish off Germany.

If you bother reading the other posts in this thread, many of them answer your question.

 

[safe-keeper]

It should give you an Idea of what you signed for when you acquired this game: Outladish scenarios have been here from Day 1. And judging by the popularity of Mods like Kaiserreich, they well liked by the Player Base. "If big Dumb X is already possible, the not so dumb Y& Z are expected to follow."

I don't think anyone here dislikes alternate history as such, we dislike silliness like Austria-Hungary being reformed and the south rising again in 1936.

Kaissereich doesn't seem implausible and silly, it seems extremely well researched and thought out, both when played and when you read the dev diaries. The devs can write pages about the real and alternative histories of individual regions in their world, and even in-game it's like exploring a world that actually was.

Alternative history, and I also seem to recall that the more outlandish scenarios -- hey, look, the US suddenly went communist overnight -- took a lot of flak also back when they were announced.

Dumb thing X is already possible, so that justifies adding dumb things Y and Z! Y and Z here being 2CW and Hapsburgs, not the Kaiserreich as that was extremely improbable (particularly by 1936) but not in the same league as the others.

Yeah. "Hey look, we already have the ability to mass-produce the Maus, so since the game is already ahistorical, I guess we can just throw our history book out the window and add AT-AT walkers and blasters because they're so cool!".

 

[Ryousan2k]

I don't think anyone here dislikes alternate history as such, we dislike silliness like Austria-Hungary being reformed and the south rising again in 1936.

Kaissereich doesn't seem implausible and silly, it seems extremely well researched and thought out, both when played and when you read the dev diaries. The devs can write pages about the real and alternative histories of individual regions in their world, and even in-game it's like exploring a world that actually was.

Alternative history, and I also seem to recall that the more outlandish scenarios -- hey, look, the US suddenly went communist overnight -- took a lot of flak also back when they were announced.

For all the hate A-H gets I do beleive is one of the better Implemented Alt-History Paths: There were Habsburg apologists still around and the lingering question of the Hungarian monarchy creates an opening , albeit a s small one, for it to happen: As the Devs in the DD said tehre was a debate over if it was the Habsburgs that were banned in Hungary or it was just Karl von Habsburg. I do beleive this an issue of Hungary being a minor and Germany being the most played major

The one thing that strikes me as outlandinsh is that the rest of Europe is unresponsive the Empire`s Reformation: There should be descisions and events concerning resurgent Habsburgs. And perhaps an overhaul for the Non-Aligned ideology.

 

[Robosoldier1]

I just don't see why people think incorporating a balance of plausible alternative history choices on the basis of historically backed knowledge is beyond the capability of paradox. I mean half of the cool in game features we have are based upon that ability of the player to manage their country and shape it based around key events. The Soviet purge and picking your officers, the Japanese military power struggle between the army and navy, Deciding the US election and the benefits the different leaders offer in respect to their character and ideals. Thats some cool alternative history potential there, and it goes into what I came here to experience, WW2.

I mean there is also just so much more to do that they have barely scratched the surface. The axis relations with Franco after the civil war, the roles and plausible outcomes a Vichy and Free France split can ignite and be based around the actions of both the axis and allies relay on them and much more. Overall stuff that can be refined and enhanced to increase that goes into the realm of "what if" without completely side swiping history off the table.

 

[Ryousan2k]

I mean there is also just so much more to do that they have barely scratched the surface. The axis relations with Franco after the civil war, the roles and plausible outcomes a Vichy and Free France split can ignite and be based around the actions of both the axis and allies relay on them and much more. Overall stuff that can be refined and enhanced to increase that goes into the realm of "what if" without completely side swiping history off the table.

Because when you are dealing with "What ifs" you are entering a realm of virtually infinite possibilities. We have to have in mind that Human History is full of fickleness and sometimes is the unlikely underdog who ends up in charge: We cant say with an absolute certainty whether a Hohen zollern Restoration was more likely than a Habsburg one, or viceversa.

 

[Robosoldier1]

Because when you are dealing with "What ifs" you are entering a realm of virtually infinite possibilities. We have to have in mind that Human History is full of fickleness and sometimes is the unlikely underdog who ends up in charge: We cant say with an absolute certainty whether a Hohen zollern Restoration was more likely than a Habsburg one, or viceversa.

No not in this regard. There is only so much extent of "What if" can happen in terms of a historic based title and setting. Especially when your basing that what if on the actions and thoughts generated by people in order to counter man another action by a rival or formulate a plan achieve a specific objective. Restoring the dead empires like the Kaiser, or the Austro Hungarian empire are implausible because it equates to a pipe dream with no backing what so ever. The new Roman empire, is one that falls in the realm of plausibility because Mussolini wanted to do that and that is based around his historic aims and views. Whether the likelihood he would achieve it is obviously based on the context of his leadership and nations ability which can be measured through historic fact and analysis. Thats the difference.

Seriously dude, randomness and outrageous scenarios doesn't make a enriching experience, just because its a plausibility doesn't mean its gonna suddenly sprout into the reality. Sure I guess it is a plausible a giant Tsunami could've hit Japan during the war, killing the emperor and utterly demoralizing the Japanese people in which they give up because their god died. Do you think that would make a good scenario to include? No of course not because that is as unlikely to have happened as the other scenarios Paradox has forged in some of its DLC design choices.

 

[safe-keeper]

Plus, some of the scenarios don't "add to" the rest of the experience as much as they breaks it in two over their knees. How does a US civil war contribute to the experience of fighting the Germans, Japanese, or Allies? The US becomes less involved in world affairs, I suppose. Maybe after the war is over I can grab some American land if they are still busy with their infighting. How does the US going Communist help the experience? They will probably end up fighting the Axis on the Allied-Soviet side anyhow.

I like alternative outcomes, of course, but as has been said so many times in this thread, there is a difference between "Rommel killed Hitler in 1944 because no one accidentally nudged the briefcase with their leg" and "the Nazis flee to the Moon in secret in 1945".

Because when you are dealing with "What ifs" you are entering a realm of virtually infinite possibilities. We have to have in mind that Human History is full of fickleness and sometimes is the unlikely underdog who ends up in charge: We cant say with an absolute certainty whether a Hohen zollern Restoration was more likely than a Habsburg one, or viceversa.

Sure, but there is still implausible and plausible.

Might Trump actually build a 3144 kilometres wall along the Mexican border? Perhaps. Unlikely, but possible. Will the Mexicans pay for it? Doubtfully.

Had HOI4 covered 2018, though, there would have been a national focus to build the wall, 80 feet high as the Trump boasted, and also not only have Mexico pay for it but also to have the Mexicans provide the crocodiles for the moat. That is the problem.

 

[Dunbal]

It would only be "invasive" if Paradox forced you to take an ahistorical path.

 

[safe-keeper]

It would only be "invasive" if Paradox forced you to take an ahistorical path.

Firstly there are AI countries around my country, so the highly implausible scenarios do affect me anyhow, and secondly I would like to play with historical focii off without Germany suddenly becoming a US state and building AT-AT walker divisions.

 

[Ryousan2k]

No not in this regard. There is only so much extent of "What if" can happen in terms of a historic based title and setting.

True enough: But what you measure you use to determine plausability? There were Habsurg proponents in former Constitutent states, specially the Austrian Jews, who thought that a Restoration would prevent the Anschluss. The problem is that i do believe implausability is not really an issue, its implausible and "a pipe dream" that the Germans could defeat the Allies and the Soviets at the same time. Yet an skillful Player can pull that up.

I