Alternate religious/racial arrangements.

[Alfryd]

This discussion mirrors one we had over at the HoA forums, but I'm hoping to toss in some ideas on the philosophy, history and character of the various faiths. The big idea is to discuss alternative setups for religious allegiance/hostility in a potential sequel.

This is an illustration of the (7-sided 'Magic TG-inspired') graph of religious relations I came up with a while back. it's not perfect- I'd like Fervus/Agrela to be on better terms, for starters- but it gives you an idea of what a different arrangment from the present could resemble. In clockwise order, you have-
Dauros (opposes Krolm and Fervus, ally of Lunord and Agrela)- Grey
Agrela (opposes Fervus and Kryphta, ally of Dauros and Helia)- Pink
Helia (opposes Kryphta and Lunord, ally of Agrela and Krolm)- Yellow
Krolm (opposes Lunord and Dauros, ally of Helia and Fervus)- Orange
Fervus (opposes Dauros and Agrela, ally of Krolm and Kryphta)- Green
Kryphta (opposes Agrela and Helia, ally of Lunord and Fervus)- Red
Lunord (opposes Krolm and Helia, ally of Kryphta and Dauros)- Blue

Now, naturally you'd need some kind of elaborate historical pretext for these shifts in allegiance, but if you set the sequel in either the distant past or near future, that might be feasible.


Another way to set things up would be to give temples major and minor antagonisms. For instance, Kryphta might have a major antagonism with Agrela, but minor antagonisms with Dauros and Krolm. When deciding whether to establish a temple in a given fiefdom is possible, you add up 'point values' for each opposed faith. let's say major antagonist = 2, minor antagonist = 1, and a value of 3 or more makes building impossible. Thus, it would be possible to build a Temple To Kryphta in a kingdom with a temple to Dauros and Krolm, but not Krolm+Agrela or Dauros+Agrela.

You might also increase the antagonist value depending on how well-developed the temples in question are, or how many of them are present. Having a single level 2 Temple to Fervus may allow you to settle your healers without problems, but frictions may erupt if you build further temples or upgrade the healers' dwelling to level 3. (In turn, this effect might be offset by building statues or taking other loyalty-boosting measures to ensure your heroes don't attack eachother.)

Let's say you have a system like the following:
Major antagonism = +2
Minor antagonism = +1
+2 per extra temple
level 2 temple present = x2
level 3 temple present = x4
As total antagonism value increases (perhaps 10 or so will do?) bloodshed or disputes between adherents of opposed faiths becomes more likely.

Naturally, this system could also be applied to the non-human races, or even immigrants from outside provinces or reaches. Yet another complication you could introduce is the presence of mutual allies, which help to smooth out potential hostilities and prevent eruption of violence (such, as, say, Lunord between Kryphta and Daurosm) and temples spaced farther apart might be less likely to contribute to such frictions.

 

[Alfryd]

Well, if you don't like the above relation graph, or want a little more explanation of the idea, here's something a little closer to Majesty's traditional setup:

Adjacent temples are allied, opposite temples are major antagonists, and everyone else is a minor antagonist. (Thus Krolm has no allies, and is a minor antagonist to all other faiths.)

TEMPLE | ALLIED         | MINOR ANTAGONIST      | MAJOR ANTAGONIST
Agrela | Dauros, Helia  | Fervus, Lunord, Krolm | Krypta
Dauros | Agrela, Lunord | Helia, Krypta, Krolm  | Fervus
Lunord | Dauros, Krypta | Agrela, Fervus, Krolm | Helia
Krypta | Lunord, Fervus | Helia, Dauros, Krolm  | Agrela
Fervus | Krypta, Helia  | Lunord, Agrela, Krolm | Dauros
Helia  | Agrela, Fervus | Dauros, Krypta, Krolm | Lunord
Krolm  | (none)         | all other faiths      | (none)

Basically, the amount of religious antagonism in your settlement reduces the loyalty of affected heroes toward their rivals. So, if you have a lot of temples to Agrela in your settlement, and then place a temple to Krolm, the loyalty of your barbarians is reduced when considered whether, for instance, to go after bounties placed on your healers. (This technique could easily be combined with Nerfish/Cooker's ideas on emotion/loyalty simulation, and, of course, using statues to boost loyalty.)

If loyalty is actually reduced into negative scores by this effect, heroes are apt to assault eachother on sight or simply leave the kingdom.

Mutual allies help to reduce religious antagonism between rival faiths, so you can have both healers and adepts in your kingdom without many problems, provided you also establish temples to dauros. Something similar might be applied to the various guilds and races- for instance, wizards could be used to accomodate both monks and barbarians, rangers to accomodate barbarians and solarii, warriors to reconcile healers, rogues for priestesses, etc. etc. etc.

Let's say the first (minor) antagonist temple reduces loyalty by 5, subsequent temples by 10 each, access to 2nd-level spells by 10 and 3rd-level spells by 25. These values are tripled for major antagonists, but mutual allies have a matching positive effect.

Let's say you have 2 temples to Agrela, one of which is at level 3. That's a loyalty reduction of 40 for minor antagonists, (such as barbarians, adepts, or cultists.) I want to recruit some cultists, which have very poor loyalty, so I first establish, then upgrade, 2 temples to Helia, which offsets loyalty reductions between cultists and healers by 25. I can now recruit cultists in relative safety. Just to be sure, I dedicate statues to more experienced cultists, thus boosting their loyalty even further (thanks to their Vanity attribute,) and place royal gardens to appease my healers, who have a particular liking for greenbelts.

Of course, in a kingdom with strong religious rivalries, recruiting heroes for either temple would also become substantially more costly (as per Spiderman's notion for guild advertisment.)

So, any thoughts? I'll be chucking in details on the various faiths philosophy/hisotry etc. later, along with proposals for new racial arrangements, but I'd love to hear some other opinions.

 

[Spiderman]

Is the idea behind this so you can have Temples and thus heros of other faiths that you can't have now?

 

[Alfryd]

Basically, yes. Instead of not allowing you to build rival temples, you're likely to suffer problems from disloyalty if you recruit heroes from opposed faiths/races/guilds, etc. So, for instance, if you want to recruit both monks and priestesses, it's likely to be more costly, one way or another, than if you stuck with Dauros/Agrela. But you can still, in principle, attempt it. (The other idea is to remove palace 'level' requirements.)

You could have certain quests where your job is essentially to smooth out religious/racial frictions in a pre-existing settlement suffering severe civil unrest, etc.

 

[Alfryd]

Well, at any rate, here's a possible species arrangement:

Grey = human, orange = dwarves, yellow = gnomes, green = goblins, blue = elves. The internal lines signify antagonism. Allied races/species are also capable of interbreeding.

One feature I should touch on here is that this system works best if you tie the performance of particular temples to their resident heroes. For instance, it shouldn't be possible to gain access to sovereign spells such as resurrection and blessing unless you have plenty of resident healers praying on a regular basis (and possibly a sizeable church convocation too.) Similarly, you won't see a boost to commerce just be placing an elven bungalow (or Elvish Quarter, as I'd imagine it,) you need to have elves actually engaging in commerce and entertainment before you see any benefits.

 

[Alfryd]

So... any particular thoughts? Good, bad, indifferent?

 

[unmerged(92619)]

It would make the game a lot more complicated, for sure. Still, the interesting possibilities would probably be worth it.

 

[Alfryd]

I would hope so. Of course, I've no expectation that anything more than fraction of my ideas either or should be implemented, but there you are.

The complications raised wouldn't be so bad provided they don't impose much on the player. I mean, if you want to keep things simple, just stick with dauros/agrela/helia as usual. Things only become tricky when you want to mix and match faiths that don't generally rub shoulders.

 

[Draxynnic]

One feature I should touch on here is that this system works best if you tie the performance of particular temples to their resident heroes. For instance, it shouldn't be possible to gain access to sovereign spells such as resurrection and blessing unless you have plenty of resident healers praying on a regular basis (and possibly a sizeable church convocation too.) Similarly, you won't see a boost to commerce just be placing an elven bungalow (or Elvish Quarter, as I'd imagine it,) you need to have elves actually engaging in commerce and entertainment before you see any benefits.

Well, one thing I'd been thinking of regarding elves is having the gold benefit tied to the presence of elven lounges rather than bungalows (with the elves not having anywhere to hold their parties if the lounges aren't present). That way it wouldn't be such a no-brainer to "accidentally" let those Lounges fall to monsters.

 

[Nerdfish]

Well, at any rate, here's a possible species arrangement:

Grey = human, orange = dwarves, yellow = gnomes, green = goblins, blue = elves. The internal lines signify antagonism. Allied races/species are also capable of interbreeding.

Majority of character in majesty are humans, would it make sense to leave them out of the antagonism ?

 

[Draxynnic]

Problem is that might leave some strange races 'allied'.

Unless you said that the races are always antagonistic, but there are some races they'll put up with and some they absolutely will not tolerate. For instance, Elves might prefer to be the only nonhumans in a settlement but they'll tolerate Dwarves and Goblins (with loyalty penalties) but if there are any stinky Gnomes in the settlement...

Still, the thought does strike me that being able to have more than one race at all could lead to balance issues - Dwarves and Elves tend to be picked up for the secondary benefits (access to improved defensive structures and gold, respectively) rather than to recruit Dwarven or Elven heroes, so unless those are also weakened by racial unrest than a given player may not care that they have to refrain from training heroes to avoid having the tension spill out into the streets.

 

[Alfryd]

...unless those are also weakened by racial unrest than a given player may not care that they have to refrain from training heroes to avoid having the tension spill out into the streets.

I've already noted that this system wouldn't work as well unless you tie the performance of variosuy factions to the activities of their heroes. the buildings should just be an incidental side-effect or prequisite, so to speak.

Majority of character in majesty are humans, would it make sense to leave them out of the antagonism ?

Yeah... it's a potential problem. It would be interesting to run a kingdom composed entirely of elves and goblins, but that relies on all classes being open to the various races, rather than simply having single classes represent each race. Still, if the sequel is going to feature MMo-style equipment substitution and individual variation in looks and style, that might be feasible.

Well, the main idea is to promote discussion.

 

[Draxynnic]

Well, one thought I have had kicking around in my head is the possibility of expanding the list of heroes each race has in order to make choice of race as important as choice of temple (in terms of heroes fielded instead of purely economic terms). So as well as the basic dwarves you could have, say, dwarven engineers with an additional building, elves might have a spellcaster hero, and gnomes... well, one idea I'd been pondering is having gnome champions emulating the behaviour of another hero once they reached Champion status.

As well as making racial choices more interesting, it would also add more variety to things like the 'clean up the Elven hideouts' missions.

That said, it would be interesting to see how whole kingdoms of the other races might work, especially if there's still the possibility of multiracial kingdoms. You'd probably be looking to have equivalents of most heroes throughout each race, but have a couple of 'signature' heroes for each race, and they're the ones you ally with that race for when playing another race.

 

[Draxynnic]

Sorry about the double-post, but I had an idea this morning that I thought should go in this thread and didn't want it to go unnoticed in an edit of my previous post...

Basically, it's an alternative method to allow heroes in factions opposed to each other to be present in the same kingdom (without having to play around with embassies). However, the price is that the new buildings have to be physically distant from their rivals, likely meaning that a larger area needs to be defended. Furthermore, it may also require the construction of additional economic buildings to support the heroes from rival factions. Ultimately, the idea is to represent that rival groups that would not coexist in one small town may be willing to coexist in different quarters of a large city, or in two seperate towns on a single map. (Consider that the Sovereign from the Majesty single-player campaign seemed to have all seven temples within his kingdom - why couldn't that be reproduced on a single map if there is room to do so?)

(For reference, in the original Majesty, the factions are the following: Each nonhuman race is a rival of the others. Krolm is a rival to all other temples. Dauros and Agrela are factional rivals of Fervus and Krypta, while Helia and Lunord are factional rivals of each other.)

The way this works is that each building belonging to a faction exerts a 'sphere of influence' - an area where the influence of that faction is readily apparent. For temples, this may be thought of as the region where the deity of that temple is followed by the populace. For races, this could be the smell of Gnome pervading the area, a liking for wild parties and the colour blue even among the human populace, and so on.

Spheres of influence of opposing factions never overlap - a building from an opposing faction cannot be placed close enough for this to occur. Upgradeable temples have larger spheres of influence as they upgrade, but the minimum difference between opposing temples is set by their largest possible size. For this purpose, the Mausoleum, if still present and functioning in the same manner, is counted as a faction of its own opposed to Dauros and Agrela, although its sphere of influence is restricted to adjacent buildings.

Not only does the sphere of influence of a building prevent buildings from opposing factions from being built nearby, but heroes from those opposing factions will shun buildings within the sphere of influence, refusing to visit, repair or defend (with the possible exception of the Palace) such buildings. Furthermore, any secondary effects from having a faction present will not function for buildings within another faction's sphere of influence - for instance, a Marketplace within the sphere of influence of a Dwarven Settlement or Ballista Tower will not receive a gold benefit for the presence of Elves. Additionally, any building (with the exception of the Palace) with the sphere of influence of a faction does not count for fulfilling the prerequisites for a building of another faction. Additionally, a building in the sphere of influence of one faction will not provide a passive benefit to another faction.

Warrior's Guilds, and any other building that has the ability to recruit guest heroes from a faction, are counted as buildings of that faction once they do so (although their sphere of influence is smaller than an actual temple). This means that Paladins cannot be trained in a Warrior's Guild within the exclusion zone of a Temple to Fervus, Krypta, or a Warrior's Guild already containing WoDs.

Buildings that crop up automatically (Elven Lounges, Gnome Hovels, etc) do have a sphere of influence, but will appear within the sphere of influence of the generating building where possible, and as close to it as possible when not.

Example: A Sovereign with Dauros, Agrela, Lunord and Elves in his primary settlement builds a trading post on the other side of the map. Partially to make sure that it is well defended and partially to take advantage of the geographical distance, he also constructs temples to Helia, Krypta and Fervus at the trading post.

However, the heroes from these temples face difficulties in equipping themselves, as buildings in the primary settlement are within the spheres of influence of their rivals - the Solarii may be able to access the Blacksmith outside the sphere of influence of the Temple to Lunord, for instance, but as it is within the sphere of influence of a Warrior's Guild containing Paladins it is off-limits to the Fervus-Krypta faction. To remedy this, the Sovereign constructs a Blacksmith, Magic Bazaar and Library at the trading post. An inn is also produced, but it is shunned by heroes from the Dauros-Agrela and Lunord faction.

While the Blacksmith in the primary settlement is within the Elven sphere of influence (thanks to an inconveniently-placed Gambling Hall), the second one, obviously, isn't. Thus, once it reaches third level, it allows a Dwarven Settlement to be produced, further firming up the defenses of the trading post. However, the exclusion zone of Elven buildings in the primary settlement makes it difficult to produce Ballista Towers around the primary settlement. The construction of the Dwarven Settlement also places the inn and the trading post within its sphere of influence, causing Elves to shun it and that inn to no longer receive the gold bonus from having Elves.

This provides the factions at the outpost with the same benefits as those in the primary settlement, apart from enchanting weapons at the Wizard's Guild (the Wizard's Guild is placed between Temples to Dauros and Agrela to encourage monk-wizard-healer parties) and purchasing items at the marketplace. Remedying the first will require the construction and full upgrading of a second Wizard's Guild (ouch). Building a second Marketplace is impossible due to the presence of the trading post, so instead an additional Marketplace and a Fairground is constructed on an edge of the main settlement away from the factional buildings in the main settlement - this causes the trading post income to drop slightly due to the reduced travel distance, but it provides a pair of buildings that all heroes can access. However, the Sovereign would have to be careful about constructing defenses, as placing Ballista Towers too close by may cause the marketplace to be shunned by the Elves, losing the gold bonus.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

That sounds like a great idea!

Only comment would be that Elves do not have influnce on Inn income.

 

[Draxynnic]

That sounds like a great idea!

Only comment would be that Elves do not have influnce on Inn income.

I thought they doubled the income of Inns and Marketplaces?

EDIT: Ah, yes, you're right. Marketplaces only.

 

[Alfryd]

That does sound like a great idea... which begs the question of why I didn't chime in, like, two years ago(?) Eh, well- maybe it'll still be food for thought.