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Pellaken

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Curious if I can ask you guys, what do you think would have been the biggest change to history?

In order to prevent "if the dinos had not died" I'm going to limit this to the past 1000 or so years of history.

What event - that could have turned out differently - would have had the largest impact on the world?

Possible examples/ideas: South wins the Civil War. Hitler wins WW2. etc
 

Fishman786

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Change: Maurice defeats Phocas.

Result: No Islam outside the Indian ocean
 

noobermenschen

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William the Bastard takes an arrow to the eye at Hastings - A Saxon England with no territory in France to fight over.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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Germany wins WW1 totally and decisive.
 

Fishman786

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Germany wins WW1 totally and decisive.
How would that be a bigger change than Harold winning at Hastings? Even a small change that far back into the past would have immense consequences, compared to some 20th century war.
 

Graf Zeppelin

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How would that be a bigger change than Harold winning at Hastings? Even a small change that far back into the past would have immense consequences, compared to some 20th century war.
I nowhere claimed it is bigger because I dont know. Hastings was already mentioned. I just gave another uh more recent game changer. :glare:
 
Last edited:

Meglok

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Here are a few to ponder:

Recent history - What if the French Monarchy DOESN'T help the American colonists during the Revolution? England and America come to a truce and America remains in the Empire as a Commonwealth nation ala Canadien Confederation of 1867?

Colonization period - What if Montezuma wipes out Cortez in 1519? The Aztecs maintain control of their Empire as the Spanish decide it is easier to trade with the Aztecs than conquer them, trade with Europe allows the Aztecs to expand into North and Central America?

Renaisance - What if the Mongols don't stop the invasion of Europe when Ogodei Khan dies in 1241? The Mongols had already defeated every army the Eastern European powers had thrown in their way, including the Teutonic Knights. It is doubtful the fragmented Western feudal system could have raised an army capable of stopping the Mongol horde. The Mongols advance to the English Channel and stay how long?

Going past your 1000 year deadline:

Dark Ages - What if Charles Martel doesn't win at Tours in 732 vs the muslims under Abd er Rahman? The Muslims spread Islam by the sword into France and Northern Europe. The Papal Church is crushed, is there a renaissance?

Roman times - What if Varus wins the battle of Teutonberg Forest 9 CE and Germany becomes another Roman province? Roman control spreads to the Vistula bringing Roman influence and civilization to the very tribes that defeat it in 400 years? Does Rome fall?

The biggest potential change in history by far takes you back to 480 BCE to what many historians list as the most important known battle in history.

What if Xerxes wins the Battle of Salamis? Greece becomes another Persian satrap, democracy is crushed, the fledgling Phoenician (Carthage), Trojan (Rome), and Greek (Syracuse/Marseilles) colonies scattered throughout the Med become Persian controlled. Western civilization is derailed for hundreds of years and possibly forever.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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So the question is: ´Which Event had/will have had the biggest Impact on the next 1000 years to follow, past, present, or future?´

More or less.

Alternate history questions like these are, IMO, constantly hampered by the fact that some people think the further back an event was, the more influential. That may technically be true, but it missed the point. Without Dragutin Dimitrijević, there is no Hitler. It doesn't follow that Dragutin Dimitrijević is more influential than Hitler.
 

Pellaken

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With these things it's a good idea not to wieght a change more heavily merely because it's further back. Try to not penalise an event because it's more recent.

My vote, for example, is the cuban missile crisis.


So the question is: ´Which Event had/will have had the biggest Impact on the next 1000 years to follow, past, present, or future?´

The question is
'Which event had/will have the biggest Impact, in terms of today being different'


This leads back to my vote, as a nuclear holocaust would be a pretty darn bad and big thing.
 

RedRalphWiggum

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My vote, for example, is the cuban missile crisis.

A very good one, but I think a case can be made around Stalislav Petrov, RYAN and Able Archer 83. The relative strength of both sides by the 80s was far greater than 20 years previously. In the 60s it would have been a horrific disaster, by the 80s it may well have meant the end of civilisation.
 

trybald

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Renaisance - What if the Mongols don't stop the invasion of Europe when Ogodei Khan dies in 1241? The Mongols had already defeated every army the Eastern European powers had thrown in their way, including the Teutonic Knights. It is doubtful the fragmented Western feudal system could have raised an army capable of stopping the Mongol horde. The Mongols advance to the English Channel and stay how long?

There were no Teutonic Knights present at Legnica, only Templars and Hospitalers. The bulk of Christian army was a coalition of about half of Polish states and they still managed to give Mongols a hard time. There was a severe panic on the Mongol side before they used gunpowder bombs, as related by Benedictus Polonus, a member of John Carpine's legation to the Great Khan. Benedictus managed to talk to some Mongol veterans of the battle.

Besides, Mongol conquests in Europe would end up in the same way they did elsewhere - they would be either driven out, or more likely, they would assimilate and then implode into various states largely following preexisting divisions.
 
Last edited:

Arilou

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I'd say it's pretty hard to argue against Constantine's conversion if you want to restrict it to singular "events". (processes like the riseof the roman state, are a diferent matter)
 

Avernite

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I'd say it's pretty hard to argue against Constantine's conversion if you want to restrict it to singular "events". (processes like the riseof the roman state, are a diferent matter)

Well, the rise of Christianity was also strongly a process by that point. The Franks'/Clovis' conversion to catholicism seems more relevant as a single event in that sense, as the trend at the time was for states/tribes to adopt Arianism.
 

Jolt

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I am kinda curious as to what develops when Christopher Columbus and his fleet doesn't make it back from his first expedition.

Something I wrote a couple of months ago:

If Columbus had sunk along with his ships, the Catholic Monarchs would just shrug. They'd have to listen to some reprimands from their advisors for committing money and resources to such foolish endeavour. The monarchs themselves never had much faith in anything substantial coming out of Columbus voyage.

A handful of years later, some Portuguese navigator would end up discovering Brazil on the outward journey to go through the Cape of Good Hope. The main difference would be that since Columbus never got to the New World and never made some colonies in the Caribbean (Which were legally Portuguese due to the Treaty of Alcaçovas, which granted everything below the Canaries to Portugal), there would be no need to sign the Treaty of Tordesillas. It is most probable that the Portuguese were already aware of the American continent (Or rather, that land existed at some point in the Western side of the Atlantic, that due to Erastothenes calculations, couldn't be Asia but was actually an uncharted land.) before Columbus set out to discover "India" for Spain.

But, if Columbus sunk down with his expedition, the most probable course of action for the Portuguese monarch at the time (John II), was to publicly continue with the expeditions along the African coast while secretly charting the American coast (Which mirrors much of what it was the original secrecy policy of Portuguese discoveries beyond the Canary islands).

Considering the manpower of Portugal, in comparison with potential competitors that had far more manpower and/or resources to commit to such adventures (Spain, France, England, Scotland, the German Hansa), it would be a much more sensible decision to keep a new continent in the dark for as long as possible, so that Portugal would be in a much better position of strength once the knowledge of the continent would become public.

So if Columbus died, the continent would remain publicly undiscovered. Portugal would probably continue secretly scouting the American coasts until either:
- Any reputable captain (vulgar sailors accounts of new lands, natives and animals across the ocean wouldn't probably carry much weight) that had knowledge on it would publicly spill the beans to another country's court, in an attempt to gain favours or rank that couldn't be gained in the Portuguese court (Like Magellan did).
- A decision of the Portuguese monarch to make the discoveries public (Possibly if the Portuguese government wanted to start a colonization of the New World, which would involve recruiting thousands of people to move there, hence nullifying any possibility of remaining a secret).
- Some other navigator, either successfully convincing a foreign court to pay for the costs of outfitting an expedition in the country's name to find some fabled lands in the West (Like Columbus did), or being wealthy and with enough contacts to privately outfit such an expedition, requiring the good will of an Atlantic nation (And Portugal, if knowing the purpose of the expedition, would never allow the ships to dock or resupply there) to serve as launching ground (Quite a lunatic idea, which requires good faith and capital of a great many people, and skills in navigation and crew to successfully accomplish it).

Also, Due to the way wind patterns and water currents happen in the North Atlantic, the only reasonable chance of any knowledgeable private expedition suceeding would be if they set sail from Portugal/Spain, onwards to the West (Like Columbus did) or using the Northern currents North of the British isles, that leads to Iceland, Greenland and then America (Like Leif Ericson did), because of the latitudes between Denmark and France, the wind and water paterns go from America to Europe.

As to my opinion, the biggest history changer would be if the Bering Strait hadn't melted or separated.