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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Got this new book today, called "Hinges of Battle". Studies how chance and incompetence have changed history.
ANyway, it mentions more about how the Ottomans came into existence (not too sure, as the author mispelt Hulagu as Hugalu...):
Ertughril, of the Turkomans, was appointed provincial governor in the Rum sultanate area. His son, Othman (Osman?) went on a "rampage", and in 1281 founded the kingdom of the Ottomans.
 

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OK, to anyone who's reading, I've edited all my big posts relating to the storytelling, except for one detail: the Ottomans. I'm still waiting to see if anyone prefers them around or not. At the mo, I'm leaning heavily towards the Saljuq Khanate, but I'm willing to see what other people say.
 

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Originally posted by Dimwit
OK, to anyone who's reading, I've edited all my big posts relating to the storytelling, except for one detail: the Ottomans. I'm still waiting to see if anyone prefers them around or not. At the mo, I'm leaning heavily towards the Saljuq Khanate, but I'm willing to see what other people say.

I agree - I think that the Ottomans would have been absorbed under these circumstances.
 

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Alright, here goes:

The Saljuq Khanate
What happened to Baiju, he who brought Rum and Anatolia under Mongol control?
After the battle of Kose Dagh and his preoccupation in the Rum area, Baiju discovered that Azerbaijani and Ayyubid forces had cut him off from Persia. Receiving news that Persia had thrown off the Mongol yoke, and observing the battle weariness of his troops, he chose to camp down, and ordered Chormaghun to do the same.
All around him, hostile enemies stood: Azerbaijan to the north, Ayyubids to the south, Byzantium to the west, and the Caliphate to the east. The last Crusader states (i.e. Aleppo) made overtures to the Mongols, which were accepted, but shortlived with their destruction by the Ayyubids. Things got easier when first the Caliphate fell to a Shia force, then the Ayyubids fell in Syria. But these enemies were replaced by Azerbaijan and the Mamluks. Luckily for the Mongols, these two kingdoms fought each other for control of Iraq. Byzantium was far too busy in the Balkans to hurt the Saljuqs seriously.
It was mainly a game of survival for the Saljuqs. In the early 14th century, the Ottomans were supressed, and absorbed into the armies of the khanate. Sunni islam was adopted by the Mongols, and moves were soon made against the Christian heathens in the area. This forced the creation of the Byzantium-Venetian alliance, as both countries were eager to protect their interests in the Levant.
The invasion of Timur weakened the Azerbaijanis and the Mamluks. Saljuqia would have been next, were it not for Timur swerving north to fight the Golden Horde in Azerbaijan. So, with their eastern enemies down and out, the Saljuqs could wage war against either Byzantium or the Mamluks...

What thi Changes from what I had Before:
-Ottomans do not exist, and neither do the smaller Turkish sultnates.
-Byzantium still has a firm hold on western Anatolia
-The invasions of Greece and Varna by the Ottomans don't happen, so the reason for Varna joining the Christian alliance are removed. Instead, tp help them deal with Wallachian and Moldavian revolts, Varna invites Byzantium as a friend, entering her into the allaince with Byzantium and Venice (Balkan League). This of course increased discontent amongst the peoples, who still remembered the destruction caused by Byzantium in the Great Euro-Mongol War.
-Krementjug does not have a friend in the Ottomans anymore. Until the loss of Varna in the First Great Euro-Mongol War (when that area was still Krementjug), a friendship had been built with their Mongol friends across the Black Sea. Trade developed, and even a secret alliance. Krementjug's funding of Saljuq wars against the Balkan League did not endear them to their southern neighbours in Varna.
-Mamluks are in alliance and vassalship with Timur, not only to preserve themselves from destruction, but to protect themselves from the growing power of the Saljuqs.
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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I will edit the past posts later: I'm eating up my internet time! :rolleyes:
 

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Originally posted by Maur13
Hmmm...
I think Helvetian pikemen wouldn't be any good against Mongols. You know, their tactic wasn't charging enemy lines...

Well ... If you are thinking of the Swiss pikemen ;) ... Their tactic _was_ to charge
the enemey lines. That's part of what made them unique, and effective. For a long
time, not many European formations could withstand Swiss columns charging in
echelon. Or many Western formations, anyways. :D

But the Swiss (or Helvetians, if you will) were primarily armed with the halbred
at this time, weren't they?. Pikes didn't come into vogue until the mid-to-latter
1300s.
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Halberds are still long, pointy things anyway, aren't they?
 
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they are long thingies with an axe ending.
a pike is a long pointy thing.
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Hmm. I always thought of halberds as being long axes with big-ass spikes on the end (sort of like a spear-axe combo). Never mind. ;)
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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By the way, I was thinking the other day: if Abba Ismail (founder of Azerbaijan) was a relative of the Khwarazam-shah, why not proclaim a new Khwarazm empire? I've added in a short thing into the post detailing the history of Azerbaijan, so if you were wondering, a brief explanation is there.
 

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I've just had another idea! In EU2, if you play Azerbaijan, it could be an event to re-proclaim the Khwarazm empire. This would happen if you conquered x territories in Persia or Transoxania. What do you guys think?
 

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Originally posted by Dimwit
Hmm. I always thought of halberds as being long axes with big-ass spikes on the end (sort of like a spear-axe combo). Never mind. ;)

Well ... yes. Halbreds did have a spear point on the end. They
were a spear-axe combo ;) :D

However, they weren't as long as pikes, nor as long as lances, and could
not really prevent cavalry from closing. When used against an armored foe,
they were most effective (I think) swung overhand like an long-handled
axe. The momentum from the swing could drive the axe-blade thru armor.

Even after the Swiss adopted the pike, they were wont to keep small
units of halbrediers in their array. Their job was to sortie out and hack
at the flanks and rear of an enemy already engaged.
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Alright, cheers. By the way, what do you think of the event I mentioned about re-proclaiming the Khwarazm empire as Azerbaijan?
 

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mongols in pommern?
Apr 20, 2001
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Hmm you said that the mongols was stoped by helvetian pikemen, since the mongol tactic was stay outside the enemys reach and fire arrows at them i dont think pikemen would become much more then arrowfodder for the mongols. Great otherwise
 
Last edited:

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mongols in pommern?
Apr 20, 2001
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Originally posted by PA-Dutch


Well ... yes. Halbreds did have a spear point on the end. They
were a spear-axe combo ;) :D

However, they weren't as long as pikes, nor as long as lances, and could
not really prevent cavalry from closing. When used against an armored foe,
they were most effective (I think) swung overhand like an long-handled
axe. The momentum from the swing could drive the axe-blade thru armor.

Even after the Swiss adopted the pike, they were wont to keep small
units of halbrediers in their array. Their job was to sortie out and hack
at the flanks and rear of an enemy already engaged.



"The halberd, arguably the most successful of the ornate polearms, had no less than 3 distinct functions, including stabbing like a spear, hamstringing enemies like a scythe, and dismounting knights like a bill hook. Among its purposes was not to be swung like a giant battleaxe."

http://www.kanga.nu/mirrors/mu.ranter.net/theory/weapons.html A great site about midle age combat, real and fictional which somehow have became what people think.
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Originally posted by Lars
Hmm you said that the mongols was stoped by helvetian pikemen, since the mongol tactic was stay outside the enemys reach and fire arrows at them i dont think pikemen would become much more then arrowfodder for the mongols. Great otherwise

Ah, this is a sore point everybody brings up!! Thing is, I can't really think of any realistic explanations of the heavy damage inflicted on the Mongols on the Elbe. But the important thing is, the Mongols won but paid dearly for their victory.
 

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Interesting, to say the least. Is there a map of this?
 

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Iron-Fisted People's Dictator
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Well, I'm making a prototype scenario in EU1, everything was well with all the Mongol khanates, until I added in Saljuqia and HEI as Byzantium... the scenario won't load, but I might post a screenshot of what the other khanates are like before I tried to add Saljuqia and Byzantium (I made a lot of back-up copies)

How do I post it up here anyway?
 

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mongols in pommern?
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Originally posted by Dimwit
Well, I'm making a prototype scenario in EU1, everything was well with all the Mongol khanates, until I added in Saljuqia and HEI as Byzantium... the scenario won't load, but I might post a screenshot of what the other khanates are like before I tried to add Saljuqia and Byzantium (I made a lot of back-up copies)

How do I post it up here anyway?

you need to upload it to some host then you just link it as a normal picture. (img)adress to the site ex http://www.host.com/page/image.jpg(/img) but with [ instead of (