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Ryousan2k

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Taking into account that Stalin has managed to "sell" it as local autorities fuck up, there was no problem of really massive social order for "muh, evil commies, let's overthrow them".

Fair enough, but the the cracks were there. Of we are going to do Alt-History there a foundation to begin things right there.


Last two categories just thought that they have changed sides quickly enough to please the winner and get independence even in the form of German protectorate.

Which opens some interesting possibilities for a possible White route, and additional Tags and Formable Nations: "Support the seccesionist movements" or the sorts.

Also, when you say, that Whites didn't hurt people as much as Reds did, you obviously know nothing about neither Russian history, nor exact that period. Nothing personal, just, I - live here, you - are obviously not.

Im not claiming the Whites were not bad, they were, argubly as bad the Reds. What i meant is that the scars of the Food Problem and the Collectivisation are fresher in the Collective memory than the "White terror" hence why would some people would cast the die with one but not the other. Sometimes timing is important.

Yes, there are plenty of White exiles in Europe. They are disorganized even worse than during Civil war, have completely different vision of political future of Russia and after all, monarchists are a minority. There are somewhat about 3-4 possible "heirs" in that time, who just "fight" with each other, while majority of White emigration are people, who actually supported the fall of monarchy in February 1917. Not bolsheviks have thrown the Nicolas out of the throne - "democrats" have done that.

True enough. But that not something that cannot be solved after the Soveits are beaten. The one thing that united the White movements is still out there. After hey recover it, they fighr each other to see who of them prevails(Two civil Wars in a row, great !) or try to compromise for Russia`s sake. I wouldnt mind a Constitutional Tsar.

Also have in mind, if Manchuku can make Puyi a real leader then anything is possible.


The figure of the tzar was so powerful, that most White leaders and generals during Civil war were the same people, who supported throwing that "powerful figure" out of the throne in 1917.

And about claims... Soviets have claimed no less than the whole world, united under the red banner of revolution. So, what?

There was a reason of why the Royal family was so thoroughly purged as it was. There was a fear that reactionary elements could rally to them, even if they saw them as useul tools more than anything. That was a symbol the Bolcheviks were not willing to give to their adversaries. So, despite as how tarnished the image of the Monarch was, it still carried some significance

And about claiming the whole world....Well, there were some problems on how actually do that, wasnt it? And for the time being they were content with recaliming the missing peices of the Russian Empire, which was still the basis of Soviet territorial claims.

To be tolerated in Soviet society after the War, Church firstly should have 1) shown unquestionable loyalty to the state 2) provide own help - with propaganda, gathering money for army and etc. After they have done that, Stalin has reached the compromise with the Church - regime doesn't see them until they stay outside of politics.

Regardless, there no doubt the CHurch would have cast their lot with the Whites and the orthodox CHurch still had a sway in the hearts and minds of the common russian. That cannot be negated.
 

sexual.pterodactyl

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For an alt-history sort of timeline I think we have to look at the plausible factor, even if it's REALLY exceedingly unlikely to actually have happened (or succeed).

Some form of monarchist restoration in Russia does not strike me as utterly impossible... just highly improbable. I think if you assume everything in HOI IV is the same until the start of the game (1936) then it's really hard to have happen organically from within Russia all by itself with any chance of success, in my opinion. You'd simply need to have some sort of external influence to encourage action, and to aid it if there was any sliver of hope... but is that really so hard to imagine?

In 1936 it's possible that with perhaps kRaZy!!! circumstances a coalition of what we'll just call "Whites" (anti-communists, traditionalists, conservatives, and yes... monarchists among them) maybe could have attempted a "second revolution" with international backing, and/or far more likely formed a break-away state that was anti-Communist in the Ukraine/Crimea and/or elsewhere (again, with international backing). The Allies and Japanese had militarily aided the Czechoslovaks/Whites against the Bolsheviks during the revolution -- so for this new cobbled together alliance of "Whites" to call back to old friends for help is not such a stretch. In the 1930s are plenty of international actors (ie, everyone not a communist) who want the Communists out of power in Russia, or to simply see a weaker USSR for their own gains.

In gameplay terms:
  • A revolution/civil war starting in the Ukraine/Crimea/Caucasus area with Allied and/or Axis help, and perhaps a second front could open in Siberia with Japanese assistance.

  • Any restoration of a tsar would probably be more of a state figurehead (perhaps to appease conservatives and monarchists and keep them in the coalition of our new "Whites"?) rather than wielding actual political power. Could it be Anastasia? Seems a tsar too far, to me. I'd suggest that Kirill would be it, who was the widely recognized claimant at the time in the '30s, though maybe a sobor could be held and give the player a choice if the re-revolution was successful in restoring the core of Russia? That'd be fun to see.

  • On the other hand, I'd expect the whatever coalition made up these new Whites would be highly fragile and fractious, just like it really was. Plenty of opportunity for ongoing political adventure there, low stability, subsequent unrest, from breakaways, etc.
Zombie, by your own words you're saying you live in Russia, and that those events were "overclaimed" and "solved by the mid '30s" -- but you're minimizing the famines which hit the whole of the USSR during that time frame and echoing a bit of the old Soviet Party Line. For decades the famines were scoffed at or outright denied by the Soviet reckoning history. Be careful.

Here's the reality of the famines: across all of the USSR at the time we're talking ~10 million dead by famine and forced displacement - but this number grossly and disproportionately affected Ukrainians, Kazakhs and other ethno-geographic groups over Russians. The impact of the famines hitting some peoples more than others was by the outright design of the Soviet leadership at the time -- not chance. This is on top of the famines of the 1920s, which were made far worse by Bolshevik leadership decisions/economic fiddling as well, and those famines resulted in millions dead, too.

Directly related to the floundering agriculture at the time, the Soviet economy was a bit of a train wreck. Whatever promises of collectivism that was made to the People were quickly broken by Stalin -- the first Five Year Plan numbers (1928-32) put forward (especially in terms of agriculture) have been shown to be utter fantasy and unworkable by modern economists both from within Russia and outside it. It's no wonder that things turned out as they did.

So there we have the famines, and the massive Soviet economic and political instability in general, in the 1920s through the 1930s, as one starting point for our hypothetical uprising that our hypothetical Whites take advantage of.

No doubt the White Terrors were hell for the people at the time (hundreds of thousands killed) and there may have been a bad taste in the mouths of many still in the 1930s. However, the Red Terror and the systematized destruction of life and property at the hands of the Bolsheviks/Soviets overshadows even that if you look at the long-view from the Revolution through the '30s (and beyond, of course). Stalinst Russia was no worker's paradise whether you're talking about "free" worker conditions, and certainly not of the forced labor camps. Again, this is doubly so for some ethno-groups more than others.

So there's another point, of living under the terrors of the Bolsheviks and beyond, especially so for ethnic minorities, that our Whites can use to foment and back an uprising.

If there's enough of a locus for South Africa to install Edward VII, go fascist, and call on Germany to help out I think there's ample opportunity for a resurgent monarchist faction in Russia.

I'd suggest that the Caucuses and/or Ukraine would be the prime spot for it and have plenty of historical fodder to play with.
 

Ryousan2k

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I think a nice way to represent this would be a descision system similar to that of Japan`s Interservice Rialry, where you have to balance the leanining of the New State between "Liberal Whites" (Kadets, Republicans and Liberals per se) and "Conservative Whites" (Traditionalists and Monarchists) leanining towards Liberalism cost War Support, but gives Bonuses to Stability and Recruitable Population, but cost War Support while leanining towards Conservativism gives you Political Power and War Support, but cost you Stability

And after the Civil War Ends you have to make a Focus Descision:

*The Liberal Focus incurs in no penalties, but releases all Soviet Republics (aside from Russia proper) as independent States and Creates a Faction with all former members, the Commonwealth of Indepedent States

*The COnservate Focus recreates the Russian Empire and you keep all the land, population and industry, but you incur in heavy penalties that twill take time, and descisions, to aliviate, remaining a very fragile state until all the problems are solved
 

REDDQ

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There was a reason of why the Royal family was so thoroughly purged as it was. There was a fear that reactionary elements could rally to them, even if they saw them as useul tools more than anything. That was a symbol the Bolcheviks were not willing to give to their adversaries. So, despite as how tarnished the image of the Monarch was, it still carried some significance

You cannot step into the same river twice as they say. I doubt people of former Imperial Russia would welcome back hundreds of years of slavery where "food shortages" were all too common (among other things). But PDX weird decision making probably will include such option anyway :rolleyes:

I hope that at one point USSR will be properly fleshed out with historical decisions though. Like famous orders including 270 which would kick Vlasov to the German side in exchange for some bonus. And Germany should et an opportunity to create ROA ofc.
 

Ryousan2k

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You cannot step into the same river twice as they say. I doubt people of former Imperial Russia would welcome back hundreds of years of slavery where "food shortages" were all too common (among other things).

We could make the argument that the Czechs had enough of the Habsburgs, and that the Germans already gave democracy a chance: Yet those are paths we can take. Frankly confining the USSR to only communism is to limit the potential of a very interesting nation, I just dont see the point having of having Communism with three different face changes
 
Last edited:

REDDQ

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That's one way to look at it. I think that with countries like USSR or USA we'll limit their potential by spreading focus trees into some far fetched possibilities instead of staying in the realm of probable. Speaking of Germany, it has no communist path even though it had significant support among the population and some leaders are still around by 1936. Meanwhile PDX went with Japan instead. So you have pretty good chances at Tsarist Russia.
 

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That's one way to look at it. I think that with countries like USSR or USA we'll limit their potential by spreading focus trees into some far fetched possibilities instead of staying in the realm of probable. Speaking of Germany, it has no communist path even though it had significant support among the population and some leaders are still around by 1936. Meanwhile PDX went with Japan instead. So you have pretty good chances at Tsarist Russia.
"Red Napoleon" is far more plausible than tsar-restoration. After several years or later of such corrupt dictatorship regime won't be much different from tzarism, enterprises and plants will be quietly privatised by people, associated with officials, or emigrants, obedient to the new government. It will be characterized by Russian nationalism with very limited leftist bolshevik heritage and "doublethink" in view of the history and politics. Hardcore putinism.
 

Bolshevik-

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As you know, most likely in the next DLC we'll see the SOV focus tree rework (and possibly "Communist" gameplay). I would like to voice my expectations regarding this.
  1. I do not believe that "fascist" and "democratic" alternative ways are possible. All potential leaders have been removed from the politics long before the game events and have no influence or relevance.
  2. As in the case of Germany, a military coup should be the trigger for alt-history events, and "Tukhachevsky case" is the most suitable candidate. There are some indirect evidences that perhaps the "Case of Trotskyist Anti-Soviet Military Organization" was not fabricated from the beginning to the end despite many other cases. Even if in our timeline, the potential coup was ephemeral, in the game Tukhachevsky could try preventively strike ahead in fear of repressions.
  3. After the fight against Stalin's government (not sure, full-scale civil war is appropriate), Tukhachevsky could ask Trotsky to return, as he was his old commander in Civil War times and was more competent in ideology and politics, or ... become a "Red Napoleon", moving away from the Bolshevik principles in economy (neutral / non-aligned way). The transition of power to Bukharin is unlikely, but who knows? Maybe he would have formed an opposition to Trotsky after his return and ... [fortune telling on tea leaves]
  4. I'd like to see a split in communist movements all-around the world after power change in U.S.S.R. and decline of world tension (such turmoils can't make damn commies stronger, right? / Tukhachevsky is our guy and will return good old days).
UPD#1: There is an urban legend about potential removal Stalin from power in first weeks of War. It tells, Stalin was seriously shocked by Hitler's "betrayal" so withdrowned his work in Kremlin and went to his "dacha"; after week or two group of high officials incl. Beria and Zhukov visited him, but when they saw him, it looked like, he waited for arrest. In our timeline they came to create Stavka, but it could be cool alt-history event/decision, if they seized power. Totalitarian stalinist regime wouldn't change much, so this alt-history scenario doesn't need new focus tree.
UPD#2: Latest devdiary inspired me. I know, It was almost impossible, but in case of Stalin's dismissal, it would be nice if woman become leader. Alexandra Kollontai, first female minister, had some kind of ties with Trotsky, so he probably could return her from "honorable exile" in Sweden (she became first female ambassador). Trotsky's place in Soviet Union after years of stalinist propaganda would be very unstable, so in leadership-triangle Trotsky-Kollontai-Bukharin (-Rykov?) she theoretically can rise even higher.

Why are people so obsessed with alt history.
 

Xanoxt

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It's too late to argue for plausibility, that ship has sailed.
If "Austria-Hungary restored" didn't tip everyone off, "Communist Japan" should've.

So, if we established beyond any doubt that plausibility is not that much relevant here, what remains relevant is fun that players get from hypothetical new focus tree.

And no less than half of players who'd buy DLC just for new Russian focus tree, would want one with tsarist option.

Me, I just want "totally the real tsarevich Alexei and not just a faker" (samozvanets) national focus as an option for post-commie Russia path.

Well, we are in Red Alert 3 territory! Only thing we lack are Giant Humanoid Battle Robots and Super Shojou operatives. :D
 

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UPD#3 Outlined the overall plan of the political part of focus tree.
ffda426f-9bbc-477c-b665-4b26c55f05a2.png


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