Alt Hist for Soviets?

[fuser312]

The lack of officers corps was something that USSR was definately facing but more than the purge, it was the result of massive expansion of the Red Army as it almost trippled from MR pact to Barbarossa. This was reflected much better n HOI3 with their officer ratio system.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

The lack of officers corps was something that USSR was definately facing but more than the purge, it was the result of massive expansion of the Red Army as it almost trippled from MR pact to Barbarossa. This was reflected much better n HOI3 with their officer ratio system.

Everyone suffered from lack of officer corps, Germany, France, UK, USA, Italy because everyone started to expand their armies like hell. USSR had more officer cadre than other nations due to territorial structure of military districts. It had its own + and - but it also put higher strain on that demand when everyone inflated their armies and already higher demand for officers was even higher for USSR.

 

[fuser312]

And it was not bad as USSR for any one of them. We know this for a fact, almost every author writing about eastern front mentiones the lack of officer corps in the Red Army at the eve of the war.

This problem was more acute for Soviets because not only they expanded like crazy, they had a much larger army compared to say Britain who fielded 43 divisions (iirc) in the war, you can't seriously compare the two nations and say they were facing similar problems in number of officer corps. Furthermore USSR was still industrializing, it didn't had unlike western nation a large educated urban population to draw from.

Of course they faced this problem on a scale that no other nation did and it was reflected quite well in HOI3 through its officer ration mechanism.

 

[JohnnyDepressio]

I would like to see an alt-hist path around the ussr winning a decisive victory against Finnland. With the Soviets aiming to annex Finnland into the ussr the allies would make an ultimatum. To withdraw soviet forces from finnland (with some concessions, basically forcing the historic situation after the end of the continuation war). If the ussr would not give in and annex Finnland the allies would seek an agreement with germany wich would allow germany to get Danzig and the corridor to east prussia it demended from Poland in return for an alliance against the ussr.

This could lead to a really tense game for a human controlled ussr when you think that fighting only nazis is not enough.

I think it is also plausible enough. There have been high tensions pre ww2 between the ussr and the western powers. Also Hitlers ambitions have always been directed against the east. Seeking revenge against France was only a secondary goal.

 

[Dlin369]

I don't think the Romanovs should be added outside of puppet paths (say non-aligned monarchies puppet Russia) or easter eggs (for when things have gone so off rails you may as well).

The main alt-history path I want to see is a very aggressive Soviet Union - something the AI can unlock if Germany or the Allies go an alternative route. If there is Democratic Germany, the balance gets thrown off and the Soviet Union in its current iteration can't move fast enough on Eastern Europe to be a credible threat. I'm hoping there is an alt-Soviet Union that serves as the main "pacemaker" that Germany usually does and can quickly subdue parts of Eastern Europe while the West are still reorganizing

 

[Hertyeer]

The trotsky alt path needs to be reworked first of all. The way it is done is meme tier

 

[Harin]

The scale of repressions are usually miscalculated and especially for officers. There are popular opinions, like, the "Purge killed all officers" or something like that but simple answers for such a complex phenomenon are rarely correct and are easy to manipulate in favor of whatever political agenda you have, both pro and contra.
In 1937 11034 (8% of all officer corps) officers have been "Purged", in 1938 - 4523(2.5%) - and it is a common manipulation when someone states that they were all killed, which is wrong. Some were shot, mostly generals and Old Guards, some were imprisoned, and some forcibly retired.

I cannot speak with authority on how many officers were purged, but the figure of 8% may not tell the whole story. If a combat division has 750 officers and losses 8%, or 60 of its junior officers, that division is hurt, but still functional. If that same combat division losses, first its division commander, its command staff, all the brigade/regiment commanders and staff, and then the rest of the casualties are spread among the more junior officers, well in a word, that division is done. Such a catastrophe can only be self-inflicted, because it is beyond the hope of any enemy to pull off such a feat in combat.

The purge happened at the top, in a very deliberate targeted manner that removed the top leaders in the military who had experience in their positions, influence, and ambition to advance in rank. Maybe that did open up slots for younger leaders, but lets not kid ourselves, that is not the reason behind the purge. The reason was most likely an unreasonable fear.

Such fear drove the purge to remove so many leaders that the USSR had a very difficult time fielding a proper chain of command against the Germans. The space between political leadership and the infantry battalion leader was decimated in the purge. Army generals and above were replaced quickly, as there are fewer of those positions, but command staffs, corps headquarter, and divisions headquarter officers were hit especially hard and could not be replaced quickly with competent and experienced leaders.

Avoiding such a catastrophe might make a good alt-history. The targeted leaders had the means to fight back. They sure had the motive. It might be a refreshing change of pace to see Stalin overthrown by the generals fighting for their lives and then try to pull the country together before the war goes global. After all, I suspect Stalin knew if anyone or thing had the power to remove him, it was the military.

 

[Fulmen]

I think it is also plausible enough. There have been high tensions pre ww2 between the ussr and the western powers. Also Hitlers ambitions have always been directed against the east. Seeking revenge against France was only a secondary goal.

It's not plausible. The Allies, who already sold out Finland and a number of other countries to the Russians in their own secret clause regarding areas of interest in June 1939, most definitely wouldn't have cut some kind of deal with Germany at the expense of Allied Poland on Germany's doorstep over neutral and remote Finland, or sacrificed the potential for an alliance with Russia over the Nordic nation. Such a notion is pure fantasy, but since it's a proposal for alt-history, I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out how unrealistic it is.

Btw, the commander of the British forces in the proposed Allied force that in public was supposed to go aid the Finns against the Russians, but in reality was almost entirely aimed at securing Northern Scandinavia and opening a northern front against the Germans, even had permission to not send a single soldier under his command to Finland.

 

[sekelsenmat]

The scale of repressions are usually miscalculated and especially for officers. There are popular opinions, like, the "Purge killed all officers" or something like that but simple answers for such a complex phenomenon are rarely correct and are easy to manipulate in favor of whatever political agenda you have, both pro and contra.
In 1937 11034 (8% of all officer corps) officers have been "Purged", in 1938 - 4523(2.5%) - and it is a common manipulation when someone states that they were all killed, which is wrong. Some were shot, mostly generals and Old Guards, some were imprisoned, and some forcibly retired.
For one, the Purge opened the way to young and promising officers, like Zhukov, Konev, Vasilevsky etc. and many others saw this as an opportunity, often accusing their commanders to get a promotion.
It is eternal debate with numerous arguments from both sides of discussion whether the Purge was harmful or beneficial to the command staff and its effect on WWII, but it was not a source of, like, widespread civil war-like uprising in a population, more of a coup of officers and power blocks, fearing they will be purged next.
The biggest impact Purge had, in terms of officers, is promoting indecisiveness, when officers hesitated to take bold actions in fear that they will fall victim to some accusations and would be purged or punished should their actions fail. the indecisiveness was the plague of USSR command cadre with only the most brave and capable commanders being able to overcome it. And this is not represented in HoIIV Purge effects at all, I suppose because devs never bothered with Purge researches or SOV never being their target for DLC.

OMG, how is it possible that people come up with this crazy revisionist stalinist propaganda?

Even Voroshilov, a Soviet Field marshal once answered to stalin when questioned why so many casualties in Finland: "Maybe you shouldn't have killed our best generals!"

Plenty of books document the absurdity of the purges that touched not only the military but millions of civilians were killed. People were accusing their co-workers of invented crimes and people were being sent to syberia on that.

The purge effect was not just the people directly killed by it, although some genial people like Tukhachevsky were killed. People were also afraid to go against Stalin's cronnies even when they were incompetent and wrong, the most famous case being when Kulig ordered T-34 and KV-1 tanks to be armed with the inferior L-11 gun just because he wanted to favour Leningrad workers:

>>>Through a combination of administrative interference by Marshal Grigory Kulik and bureaucratic inertia, the first models of the T-34 and KV-1 were both armed with the L-11. Testing of both tanks highlighted an undesirable situation where both a medium tank and heavy tank were equal in firepower and neither had the firepower necessary to defeat a foreign tank of similar capabilities. <<<

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-11_76.2_mm_tank_gun and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

The gun was so bad that the already produced tanks had to be refit with the much better gun from Gorky, which was produced against orders in a patriotic move of the factory leadership which could have easily being killed for this insubordination.

Also the purges put incompetent cronies from Stalin in total command of the army, and their stupidity was a leading cause of the disaster in Barbarossa.

So no, the purges were not little, and they directly affected the combat capabilities of the Soviet army.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

I cannot speak with authority on how many officers were purged, but the figure of 8% may not tell the whole story. If a combat division has 750 officers and losses 8%, or 60 of its junior officers, that division is hurt, but still functional. If that same combat division losses, first its division commander, its command staff, all the brigade/regiment commanders and staff, and then the rest of the casualties are spread among the more junior officers, well in a word, that division is done. Such a catastrophe can only be self-inflicted, because it is beyond the hope of any enemy to pull off such a feat in combat.

The problem was that there was already huge shortage of officers in USSR due to growth of military structure and the Purge worsened this shortage. Army lacked 34 and 39 thousands officers in 37/38. And keep in mind that officers were not removed instantly, they were gradually replaced. By 1940/41 officer shortage was 60 and 66 thousands even with extensive training programs - and the Purge was long gone by that time.

Avoiding such a catastrophe might make a good alt-history

That is the main source of debates - was the Purge beneficial in a long run, promoting new, able commanders, with understanding of modern tactics and warfare, or it was more harmful with inflicting athmosphere of indecisiveness, leading to early defeats? So far I haven't seen any serious historians who can answer this question because it is such a complex question for analysys with so many "ifs" that only populists like Beevor can state that they have a "clear answer"
Nevertheless it is a great material for Alt History and divergence points.

OMG, how is it possible that people come up with this crazy revisionist stalinist propaganda?

If some issue is not to your liking that doesn't make it "propaganda" or "revisionism", calling Thought Police for wrongthink is not the best way to deal with historical events.

Even Voroshilov, a Soviet Field marshal once answered to stalin when questioned why so many casualties in Finland: "Maybe you shouldn't have killed our best generals!"

Plenty of books document the absurdity of the purges that touched not only the military but millions of civilians were killed. People were accusing their co-workers of invented crimes and people were being sent to syberia on that.

Do you have any source on Voroshilov's quote? A lot of books state that Pyramids were built by aliens. Solzhenitzin's GULAG Archipelago states that 160 millions were killed and there are plethora of numbers and sources for numbers. Getting emotional because someone refuses to hate what you hate won't get you far in discussion.

>>>Through a combination of administrative interference by Marshal Grigory Kulik and bureaucratic inertia, the first models of the T-34 and KV-1 were both armed with the L-11. Testing of both tanks highlighted an undesirable situation where both a medium tank and heavy tank were equal in firepower and neither had the firepower necessary to defeat a foreign tank of similar capabilities. <<<

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-11_76.2_mm_tank_gun and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

The gun was so bad that the already produced tanks had to be refit with the much better gun from Gorky, which was produced against orders in a patriotic move of the factory leadership which could have easily being killed for this insubordination.

Now if you dig into Tuchachevskiy and his plans, Kulik's meddling with T-34 would be insignificant and negligable compared to Tukchachevskiy's plans and military spendings. Purged Uborevich fared extremely bad during 1936 war games with other similar examples, showing that "Capable And Skilled Old Generals vs New Incompetent Stalin Cronies" approach is immature.

Also the purges put incompetent cronies from Stalin in total command of the army, and their stupidity was a leading cause of the disaster in Barbarossa.

Zhukov, Konev, Vasilevskiy and others already proved much more capable than some Old Guards. Example of Uborevich's abysmal performance in 1936 and Zhukov's actions during Khalkin Gol is enough to not see this as "Incompetent Cronies against Skilled Old Guard".

So no, the purges were not little, and they directly affected the combat capabilities of the Soviet army.

I have no idea where you found some statement in my posts that Purges were NOT affecting the army or affected it in minor way.

So, overall, try to not see thing as Black vs White and absolutes. And also try to accept that not everyone see Stalin as Satan and Absolute Evil and that lots of people see different historical figures differently. That will help you a lot in historical discussions.

 

[CrazyZombie]

The purge effect was not just the people directly killed by it, although some genial people like Tukhachevsky were killed.

Cut this crap with "genius Tukhachevsky". For everything he had done in the sphere of armament, he should have been resurrected and shot again - for the sabotage. Plenty of research and design projects leading to nowhere without any sane result (but using resources and time which could be put at something else), thousands of tanks without thousands of trucks and repair lorries to somehow keep those tanks capable to fight because Tukhachevsky was a proponent of tank zerg-rush concept without thinking how would that work IRL.

Tukhachevsky was a typical military non-professional (which is ironic, considering he was one of officers, having profile military education), because professionals take into account such dull things as logistics or economic and industrial capabilities of the state.

People were also afraid to go against Stalin's cronnies even when they were incompetent and wrong, the most famous case being when Kulig ordered T-34 and KV-1 tanks to be armed with the inferior L-11 gun just because he wanted to favour Leningrad workers:

>>>Through a combination of administrative interference by Marshal Grigory Kulik and bureaucratic inertia, the first models of the T-34 and KV-1 were both armed with the L-11. Testing of both tanks highlighted an undesirable situation where both a medium tank and heavy tank were equal in firepower and neither had the firepower necessary to defeat a foreign tank of similar capabilities. <<<

Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-11_76.2_mm_tank_gun and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

The gun was so bad that the already produced tanks had to be refit with the much better gun from Gorky, which was produced against orders in a patriotic move of the factory leadership which could have easily being killed for this insubordination.

I have no idea, where this bullshit came from at all...

L-11 was designed to the last letter of technical task (influenced by the Spanish experience), using the ballistics of divisional 76mm gun in order to have interchangeable ammunition and be able to use vast amounts of already existing shells. At the time of T-34 adoption at service F-34 gun wasn't ready yet (as the technical task on it would be issued only in 1940), and when it was finished, it was immediately put into production. L-11 was put on the T-34 because it was present right here right now. Oh, and newsflash - mentioned Kulik himself issued the technical task on the F-34 gun.

As for L-11 gun being so bad that "neither had the firepower necessary to defeat a foreign tank of similar capabilities" - would you be so kind to name existing in 1939 foreign tanks of "similar capabilities" to be both invincible to the fire from L-11 and being capable to pose a threat to T-34 and KV?

 

[CrazyZombie]

That is the main source of debates - was the Purge beneficial in a long run, promoting new, able commanders, with understanding of modern tactics and warfare, or it was more harmful with inflicting athmosphere of indecisiveness, leading to early defeats?

I'd say, it was a bit of both. Purge has cleared out of the army (not executing, just forcing to retire) a lot of officers who were clearly incompetent and carried their service in the worst ways possible, following examples of their tzarist predecessors in the provincial garrisons to the letter - alcoholism, drugs, corruption, paying little to no attention to combat training of their troops or simply their life conditions. Red Army was seen as an easy social lift and opportunity to not work and get money for it at the same time. Ironic that this was literally the direct heritage of Russian Imperial Army and it's practices.

At the same time, I can't deny that how Purge happened (which was also caused by internal struggle for influence between army and NKVD) really has lead to the indecisiveness of many of freshly promoted officers, especially when political officer could question any their decision and maybe use the negative conclusions for further promotion.

 

[Secret Master]

We are not discussing war crimes or crimes against humanity. Forum rules explicitly forbid this.

Thread closed. Posts deleted.