Alt Hist for Soviets?

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

There are a lot of possible "points of divergence" for USSR. First of all - Czechoslovakia and mutual defense pacts, discarded before Munich. Then Tuchachevskiy and his alleged coup plots, no matter fictional or true. Japanese conflicts, Finland's possible acceptance to exchange territories, Malenkov and others.

But one possability is a clearlly fictional one - the return of Romanovs and restoration of monarchy. Reason is that monarchy was hated by all parties of Russian Civil War. Both February and October relovutions had one common goal - to topple the tzar. White Movement hated the monarchy, with several exclusions.
Kerenskiy hated monarchists, defeated whites hated monarchists, all spectrum of reds hated monarchists. They had literally no support inside USSR.

 

[Rashie]

Doesn't the Soviet Union have a Trotsky path now? Just never do the Purge.

Or did that get patched out at some point?

It's still in there, although it could be expanded upon greatly. It's not really an alternate path in the focus tree so much as just picking a single 70 day focus instead of doing the purge.

 

[Falkenhayn1]

I think that there will be next ways:
1.Historical Stalinism
2.Historical Stalinism but Molotov managed to create alliance with Hitler in 1940 and there is the Berlin-Moscow Asxis
3.Trotskyism
4."Good Bolshevism". Maybe with Bukharin. More market, more liberties, more democracy, more friendship with the West.
5.Romanovs and a Cyril Vladimirovich as the new Emperor.
6.Democratic republic (pro-Western).
7.Fascist dictatorship (maybe anti-Nazi, with Pan-Slavic ideology and wargoals, like the Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera has a Pan-Hispanic ideology and wargoals).
I think that the Tukhachevsky revolt will be turning point.
It seems for me that this is senseless to dispute about the historical foundations of certain alternatives.
But PDX relies primarily on considerations of gameplay and flavor rather than historicism. For example they maked literally the South will rised again and Third French Empire. So I propose to stop arguing about the possibility of the restoration of the monarchy in Russia in 1936

 

[Treviranus]

There are a lot of possible "points of divergence" for USSR. First of all - Czechoslovakia and mutual defense pacts, discarded before Munich. Then Tuchachevskiy and his alleged coup plots, no matter fictional or true. Japanese conflicts, Finland's possible acceptance to exchange territories, Malenkov and others.

But one possability is a clearlly fictional one - the return of Romanovs and restoration of monarchy. Reason is that monarchy was hated by all parties of Russian Civil War. Both February and October relovutions had one common goal - to topple the tzar. White Movement hated the monarchy, with several exclusions.
Kerenskiy hated monarchists, defeated whites hated monarchists, all spectrum of reds hated monarchists. They had literally no support inside USSR.

Well did they hate the monarchy per se or did they hate the monarchy because they identified the concept with Nicholas II. and the nature of his rule? If a somewhat eligible candidat from the Romanov family had been around during the Civil War, I don't think the White Movement would have been all that critical of the monarchy.

 

[Falkenhayn1]

Well did they hate the monarchy per se or did they hate the monarchy because they identified the concept woth Nicholas II. and the nature of his rule? If a somewhat eligible candidat from the Romanov family had been around during the Civil War, I don't think the White Movement would have been all that critical of the monarchy.

You're right, moreover, as a Russian historian who interested in the Russian emigration history I can say that monarchist ideals became more popular in the emigration with the years.
Anton Turkul, Pyotr Krasnov (he wasn't actual separatist, his books are quite pro-monarchical), Ivan Solonevich, Ivan Ilyin and many other prominent emigrants were monarchists

 

[pheonicia]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but I would bet that any monarchist path would be some dictator declaring themselves Tsar, and then coercing someone into claiming to be Anastasia for some semblance of legitimacy. I doubt paradox will bring the romanovs back from the grave, though I could be wrong.

 

[CrazyZombie]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, but I would bet that any monarchist path would be some dictator declaring themselves Tsar, and then coercing someone into claiming to be Anastasia for some semblance of legitimacy. I doubt paradox will bring the romanovs back from the grave, though I could be wrong.

I suggested them to resurrect Nicolai II by the hand of hidden monarchist Lysenko. For some reason PDX didn't appreciate the idea much despite the same plausibility as any other way to the triumph of monarchy in Soviet Union.

 

[Taniwha]

Paradox is in this cycle where they designed the game so that you're handicapped if you play anything other than fascism or authoritarian, expansionist non-aligned states. Then they gave more focus trees to those states, including in countries where they make absolutely no sense (17th century absolutist Britain comes to mind, or Australia being run by a fascist party that had literally ceased to exist by 1936, or the fucking union of Portugal-Brazil!). Then when people play those countries because they have the most gameplay options, Paradox decides that the entire fanbase must be monarchists and gives them even more development focus.

Hence, we're getting some kind of Czarist restoration. Does it make sense? No. Do I hope I'm wrong? God yes.

But I'm not betting on it.

 

[CrazyZombie]

Paradox is in this cycle where they designed the game so that you're handicapped if you play anything other than fascism or authoritarian, expansionist non-aligned states. Then they gave more focus trees to those states, including in countries where they make absolutely no sense (17th century absolutist Britain comes to mind, or Australia being run by a fascist party that had literally ceased to exist by 1936, or the fucking union of Portugal-Brazil!). Then when people play those countries because they have the most gameplay options, Paradox decides that the entire fanbase must be monarchists and gives them even more development focus.

Hence, we're getting some kind of Czarist restoration. Does it make sense? No. Do I hope I'm wrong? God yes.

But I'm not betting on it.

That's why I treat HOI4 as a base for mods and that's like all, I want from it now (definitely I was promised something different back at the preorder stage). For some reason people who write scenarios and focus trees for free do much better work than the devs of base game.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

Well did they hate the monarchy per se or did they hate the monarchy because they identified the concept woth Nicholas II. and the nature of his rule? If a somewhat eligible candidat from the Romanov family had been around during the Civil War, I don't think the White Movement would have been all that critical of the monarchy.

Both in fact. Most of White Movement were Februarists and if at start most of them supported the idea of constitutional monarchy by the time of October Revolution even that idea was abhorrant to them. Reasons - the Dynasty was VERY unpopular. Nicholas II was so unpopular that it was members of Black Hundreds(Shulgin) who came to persuade him to abdicate - the organization created with the sole purpose of supporting the monarchy and ruling dynasty. It's like, I don't know, as if Swiss Guard will ask Pope to surrender to protestants.

You're right, moreover, as a Russian historian who interested in the Russian emigration history I can say that monarchist ideals became more popular in the emigration with the years.
Anton Turkul, Pyotr Krasnov (he wasn't actual separatist, his books are quite pro-monarchical), Ivan Solonevich, Ivan Ilyin and many other prominent emigrants were monarchists

They became popular when all really powerful leaders of White Movement perished or abandoned their foghts. Vrangel dead, Kutepov and Miller executed, Yudenich and Denikin accepted their defeats and removed themselves from politics. As ROVS' and overall remaining evacuated military forces numbers vanished, they were no longer a noticable military power. Especially by 1936.
Turkul were tolerated along with Drozdovskiy only because they had functional military forces during Civil War and even then had lots of conflicts with other white regiments. both Solonevich and Ilyin were a staunch Hitler supporters and politicans with autholrity over emigrees only. Even goebbels shunned Solonevich when he offered his help to nazi Germany, thinking he is too insignificant and untrustworthy.
Krasnov - the man who broke every oath and promise he made and tainted with treachery since Great War, Betraying Tsar, Februarists, Don Separatists, reds and who knows who else.
Semyonov - a bloody butcher like Krasnov, had no political independance while serving Japan against USSR but he was so hated of the Russian Far East that his appearance as a kind of puppet ruler would cause explosive guerilla activity just because there were a lot of survivors of his punitive riads with memories still fresh of freezing pregnant women alive or impaling children as a punishment for allowing reds to pass through village.

And worst of all, by 1936 there were almost no active military personnel for White Emigration. They could act as a puppet government, installed by someone, but not as a fighting force.

Romanovs and a Cyril Vladimirovich as the new Emperor.

Cyril Vladimirovich had no inheritance rights since 1905.

There is a good thread about alt history for USSR with lots of nuances and suggestions and current NFs

 

[Falkenhayn1]

Both in fact. Most of White Movement were Februarists and if at start most of them supported the idea of constitutional monarchy by the time of October Revolution even that idea was abhorrant to them. Reasons - the Dynasty was VERY unpopular. Nicholas II was so unpopular that it was members of Black Hundreds(Shulgin) who came to persuade him to abdicate - the organization created with the sole purpose of supporting the monarchy and ruling dynasty. It's like, I don't know, as if Swiss Guard will ask Pope to surrender to protestants.

They became popular when all really powerful leaders of White Movement perished or abandoned their foghts. Vrangel dead, Kutepov and Miller executed, Yudenich and Denikin accepted their defeats and removed themselves from politics. As ROVS' and overall remaining evacuated military forces numbers vanished, they were no longer a noticable military power. Especially by 1936.
Turkul were tolerated along with Drozdovskiy only because they had functional military forces during Civil War and even then had lots of conflicts with other white regiments. both Solonevich and Ilyin were a staunch Hitler supporters and politicans with autholrity over emigrees only. Even goebbels shunned Solonevich when he offered his help to nazi Germany, thinking he is too insignificant and untrustworthy.
Krasnov - the man who broke every oath and promise he made and tainted with treachery since Great War, Betraying Tsar, Februarists, Don Separatists, reds and who knows who else.
Semyonov - a bloody butcher like Krasnov, had no political independance while serving Japan against USSR but he was so hated of the Russian Far East that his appearance as a kind of puppet ruler would cause explosive guerilla activity just because there were a lot of survivors of his punitive riads with memories still fresh of freezing pregnant women alive or impaling children as a punishment for allowing reds to pass through village.

And worst of all, by 1936 there were almost no active military personnel for White Emigration. They could act as a puppet government, installed by someone, but not as a fighting force.


Cyril Vladimirovich had no inheritance rights since 1905.

There is a good thread about alt history for USSR with lots of nuances and suggestions and current NFs

1.Shulgin wasn't a blackhundredist. He was a moderate nationalist. His All-Russian National Union wasn't a part of Black Hundred movement.
2.You pretend to be an expert in the history of Russian emigration, but you don't know that Miller was alive and free and Yudenich was dead by the game start date. Bruh.
3.Drozdovsky isn't related to the history of Russian emigration because he was killed in 1918.
4.You are writing a set of ideological and moral claims to people, but the problem is that Ilyin, Solonevich, Turkul were monarchists and were very prominent and authoritative figures of the Russian emigration. Ilyin wasn't the Nazi, btw, please check his biography, he was forced to emigrate from the Third Reich to Switzerland because of his position. He admitted that fascism was useful in the fight against communism, but he was still primarily a religious guy and therefore criticized fascism for "Caesarism" and "pagan worship of the nation." (Source: "On fascism" by I.A. Ilyin, 1948)
5.I perfectly know that Cyril had no inheritance. But this did not stop him from proclaiming himself emperor in exile in 1924 and this didn't stop a lot of authors of althistory. I don't think it will stop the Paradoxes if they did Bonapartism and the Confederacy in 1936.

P.S. On the question of the military forces of the white emigrants.
Of course they weren't that big. Nevertheless, the emigration could have fielded a certain amount of military force.
Most of the veteran emigrants were still eligible for military service. Many young emigrants also received military training in exile. Emigrants in the 1930s fought in Paraguay and Spain (in Spain even on both sides), many Russian emigrants served in the Czechoslovak, Polish, and French armies. They were all pretty well connected. So Russian emigrants could well constitute a significant military force (for example, Russian emigrants in Serbia managed to create a pro-German Russian Corps, in which 11 thousand people served, and this is only the diaspora in Yugoslavia).

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

1.Shulgin wasn't a blackhundredist. He was a moderate nationalist. His All-Russian National Union wasn't a part of Black Hundred movement.

He was integral part of ultra-loyalist movement united with Black Hundreds in purpose, but where Purishkevich called for pogroms, SRN complained that blackhundrists killed only poor jews and rich ones reain unharmed. His political views changed several times but was still an honorable member of Archangel Michael's Union in Ostrog. He had some differences with Purishkevich in terms of parlamentarism but with staunch support of royal family.

You pretend to be an expert in the history of Russian emigration, but you don't know that Miller was alive and free and Yudenich was dead by the game start date

I am not a historian by education and can have mistakes as I learned different but not exactly intgerbellum period. My comment was more about overall disorganization of russian emigration up to 1936. Miller have been captured in 1937 and died in 1939 so he, along with other remaining generals could not muster enough of a fighting force to pose any threat for USSR.

Drozdovsky isn't related to the history of Russian emigration because he was killed in 1918.

Turkul was a "heir" to Drozdovskiy in terms of his regiment command and political connections.

You are writing a set of ideological and moral claims to people, but the problem is that Ilyin, Solonevich, Turkul were monarchists and were very prominent and authoritative figures of the Russian emigration. Ilyin wasn't the Nazi, btw, please check his biography, he was forced to emigrate from the Third Reich to Switzerland because of his position. He admitted that fascism was useful in the fight against communism, but he was still primarily a religious guy and therefore criticized fascism for "Caesarism" and "pagan worship of the nation." (Source: "On fascism" by I.A. Ilyin, 1948)

They were authorities for a part of russian emigration, still divided into monarchists and februarists. Ilyin worked under Goebbels until he left due to disagreements on antisemitic propaganda. And most of his criticisms of fascism have been written when nazis have been defeated. until then, he praised national-socialism openly. He was forced out of the Reich in 1938, and he published his anti-communism works until 1937.

I perfectly know that Cyril had no inheritance. But this did not stop him from proclaiming himself emperor in exile in 1924 and this didn't stop a lot of authors of althistory. I don't think it will stop the Paradoxes if they did Bonapartism and the Confederacy in 1936.

And that is the problem, just like Communist Japan or Bonapartism. They ar enot Alt-Hitory, they are wacky. There is a difference between semi-possible "points of divergence" and Red Alert kind of alt history, with bear cavalry and cossack telepaths.
Cyrill declared himself an Emperor and that decision divided already fractured emigration even more, with most of white generals siding with Hitler, save for some exceptions and others seing this as another treachery.

 

[Mackus]

I agree that there would be no way to overthrow Stalin with POD in 1936 is correct historically, it's just that I think this fact shouldn't stand in way of adding interesting content to the game. The standard for new national foci is that they shouldn't be less realistic that what already is in game. And what interesting foci we currently have in-game? Communist Japan (when Social democrats got less than 5% in 1936 elections), reborn Austria-Hungary, non-democratic paths for USA and UK (neither would turn fascist or communist, certainly not without earlier pod where they failed to recover from great depression).
By all means, make communist paths over-represented compared to rest, but lets not limit Russia-centered DLC to less than all four ideologies.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

I perfectly know that Cyril had no inheritance. But this did not stop him from proclaiming himself emperor in exile in 1924 and this didn't stop a lot of authors of althistory.

That’s interesting but shouldn’t be part of the Soviet tree. We’ve already proposed making independence and resistance movements playable and used Ukraine and Nationalist Spain among the examples. A self-proclamed Czar-in-exile could be implemented this way as well. Obviously would be hostile to the Soviets.

Another alternative inspired by Manchukuo and Vichy: start as Soviets, get defeated by monarchists who install a puppet Czar. Then get a new focus tree (like Vichy) with Obedience and Assertiveness branches.

 

[parkerg12]

When it comes to ALT history i always like to look back in time. At what date could there been a massive divergence? Stalin dead at the start of 1936? what would that do? or What if the purges never happened? What if we look at 1930? with the focuses and decisions we can easily take a step back and say hey this other thing happened in 1930 so this is why we are at this point.

 

[fuser312]

I for one don't care about alt histor scenarios in 1936. Give me a proper Eastern Front war where USSR can actually fight Germany, Finalnd actually does continuation war, Features that exists in game but for some reason are not given to USSR like army in Exile. Polish Home Army and French fighters did fought from the USSR etc etc.

And to scratch the itch of alt history why look at 1936 only, why not create some sort of operation unthinkable, Paradox had created a scenario in HOI2 iirc. So if Paradox can do something about ridiculous division spam, create some scenarios that triggers third world war in a proper manner.

 

[Harin]

I am no historian and know even less about Russia, so please tell me if this makes no sense.

What if the Soviet officers fought back against the purge, or were tipped off it was about to begin?

So many were killed, it seems natural that it crossed some of their minds to band together, take Moscow, Leningrad, etc... and purge Stalin and his cronies instead. There is nothing like an existential threat to spur some actions thought entirely impossible before.

There could be a mini civil war as the army fights the political forces, but the military would overwhelm armed opposition within weeks by grabbing all the arsenals first. Then the military leadership must build up collaboration among the federation, possibly using spy missions and garrison units, until eventually lands are annexed back into the Soviet Union. Then a permanent political leader can be installed, most likely a communist who promises not to kill everyone.

Some of the federal states may be harder than others to convince to rejoin the USSR, some may seek independence. Bringing them back into the fold, forcibly, may give the new country access to XP and economic and conscription laws.

 

[Volodio]

I'm surprised that there is so much demands for realistic alternate history. I mean, Paradox has proven time and again that the alternative history of HoI4 is ridiculous and memey but certainly not historically accurate. Right at the release of the game it was obvious, when they put these alternate scenarios while also starting the game in 1936, when it was basically too late to go back for any country, rather 1933 when most of the alternate history could still happen.

So what do you expect? To have Bukharin making a coup while Trotsky is invading the US from Mexico, a Bonaparte is attacking a Kaiser-led Germany and Greece is reforming Byzantium? It obviously it won't happen. As always, if we want realistic alternate history, we'll have to go to mods for that.

 

[fuser312]

Yes I am too sick and tired of these ridiculous alt history in HOI4. A 12 years long game is not good for these grand alt-history, its just nonsensical and memes nothing more, I have no idea why people like them. I mean Iguess people who gravitate towards these game must have some interest in history they why they want such nonsensical scenario where Hapsburgs can be fightng communist Japan.

Now I am not against alt-history but they should be rooted in plausability, something like a military coup in Germany during annexation of Czeckoslovakia as there was a plan for it. Operation Pike, western allies supporting Finland and a war between USSR and allies erupts. Italy joining allies because it saw itself protector of Austria (yes there was a probability of it) and many others . But I bet I would rather see aliens and Indiana Jones Nazis in game rather than a game focused on proper history. I mean even after 4 years of the game there is no continuation war, what gives?

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

Another alternative inspired by Manchukuo and Vichy: start as Soviets, get defeated by monarchists who install a puppet Czar. Then get a new focus tree (like Vichy) with Obedience and Assertiveness branches.

That would be a perfect and logical role for emigration and remaining monarchists but hardly feaseble due to gameplay issues - to be defeated and viable, USSR had to enter the war very very early, to even allow such scenario without missing all WWII. All alt-options in HoIIV have at least a year or two until big brawl. I doubt it could be done for USSR without wackiness to install some puppet government, like SCW or Manchuko.

I for don't care about alt histor scenarios in 1936. Give me a proper Eastern Front war where USSR can actually fight Germany, Finalnd actually does continuation war, Features that exists in game but for some reason are not given to USSR like army in Exile. Polish Home Army and French fighters did fought from the USSR etc etc.

And to scratch the itch of alt history why look at 1936 only, why not create some sort of operation unthinkable, Paradox had created a scenario in HOI2 iirc. So if Paradox can do something about ridiculous division spam, create some scenarios that triggers third world war in a proper manner.

To be able to have a decent front, USSR should have a complete rework of NF tree, because now Axis superiority in industry bonuses are so overwhelming that SOV have no chance for even a stalemate.

I am no historian and know even less about Russia, so please tell me if this makes no sense.

What if the Soviet officers fought back against the purge, or were tipped off it was about to begin?

So many were killed, it seems natural that it crossed some of their minds to band together, take Moscow, Leningrad, etc... and purge Stalin and his cronies instead. There is nothing like an existential threat to spur some actions thought entirely impossible before.

There could be a mini civil war as the army fights the political forces, but the military would overwhelm armed opposition within weeks by grabbing all the arsenals first. Then the military leadership must build up collaboration among the federation, possibly using spy missions and garrison units, until eventually lands are annexed back into the Soviet Union. Then a permanent political leader can be installed, most likely a communist who promises not to kill everyone.

The scale of repressions are usually miscalculated and especially for officers. There are popular opinions, like, the "Purge killed all officers" or something like that but simple answers for such a complex phenomenon are rarely correct and are easy to manipulate in favor of whatever political agenda you have, both pro and contra.
In 1937 11034 (8% of all officer corps) officers have been "Purged", in 1938 - 4523(2.5%) - and it is a common manipulation when someone states that they were all killed, which is wrong. Some were shot, mostly generals and Old Guards, some were imprisoned, and some forcibly retired.
For one, the Purge opened the way to young and promising officers, like Zhukov, Konev, Vasilevsky etc. and many others saw this as an opportunity, often accusing their commanders to get a promotion.
It is eternal debate with numerous arguments from both sides of discussion whether the Purge was harmful or beneficial to the command staff and its effect on WWII, but it was not a source of, like, widespread civil war-like uprising in a population, more of a coup of officers and power blocks, fearing they will be purged next.
The biggest impact Purge had, in terms of officers, is promoting indecisiveness, when officers hesitated to take bold actions in fear that they will fall victim to some accusations and would be purged or punished should their actions fail. the indecisiveness was the plague of USSR command cadre with only the most brave and capable commanders being able to overcome it. And this is not represented in HoIIV Purge effects at all, I suppose because devs never bothered with Purge researches or SOV never being their target for DLC.