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Natethegreat

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Hi guys, with the Soviet Rework eventually coming this means we will get some alt hist. Do you guys now of any possible Alt Hist for the Soviets? I know a lot about ww2 history but not so much about the intricacy of the countries politics during the interwar and possible different outcomes that could ave happened no matter how much of a stretch they are.

Would it be possible for a Romanov to get into power and what about a Fascist Russian Far east supported by the Japanese as that is where the Russian Fascists were.
 
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Ragnor Ironpants

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Given the Romanovs were completely discredited by the revolution and weak and unpopular within the Soviet Union by 1936, I'd hope they offer a more grounded and realistic alt-history paths (e.g. like Communist China) than the fantasy routes they've been taking. But since the trend is for monarchist options (which as somebody who used to prefer ahistorical mode I'm finding tedious now, tbh) I'm going to guess they'll include that. It would be more realistic to have the Kerensky government return tbh (although only barely - they had completely discredited themselves too).

Hopefully they'll also have several detailed paths of internal Communist Party politics, as with the Spanish Civil War. The hardest bit is thinking up a realistic point of divergence from 1936 onwards, as all the real opportunities of removing Stalin had already been missed by that point - at the beginning of 1936 it's hard to see any opposition to Stalin materialising, and Kamenev and Zinoviev are in prison waiting to be shot. Realistically, Bukharin was probably the only 'Old Bolshevik' with the popularity and prestige to challenge Stalin and although he had lost a lot of his political power he was not arrested until February 1937 and not shot until March 1938. Gameplay wise he would make sense as the chosen leader of a coalition of moderates and 'rightists' opposed to the purges. He would also be interesting to play as since he could put in place a more mixed economy (as a successor project to the NEP) and also more party and low-level democracy (something he was known to be interested in) - a USSR a little bit more like a Social Democracy.

Trotsky returning is a bit ridiculous, since he hadn't been in the Soviet Union for so long, his supporters had been converted or executed, and the Left Opposition completely broken up. His reputation had also been completely trashed by Stalinists by 1936 as well. For these reasons a left-wing branch is also harder to imagine, as unlike an internal power struggle within the bureaucracy/leadership, from which the leftists had been purged, it would realistically only involve a workers' revolt - and, again, 1936 is a bit late for that. But if you introduced a destabilising element, such as concerted opposition to the purges and to Stalin within the bureaucracy/leadership (in which Lenin's last testament denouncing Stalin is revealed, seriously damaging him), then you could create a scenario where the left attempts to take power with some popular support (and perhaps at this point the player has the choice between the right wing or left wing path). But this should probably be much harder and messier than the right-wing path (like the POUM/Anarchist routes in the SCW), and would realistically create a split in the army and a civil war. It should also probably have more choices of leader - if you want to play as Trotsky, then it should bring extra penalties that have to be removed over time to reflect how badly damaged his reputation had been. Another (and more interesting) alternative leader on this path would be Alexandra Kollontai, who was a feminist Old Bolshevik and a prominent member of the Worker's Opposition in 1922. She became a diplomat and ultimately kept her head down and submitted to Stalin, but she avoided the purges and probably only supported Stalin reluctantly, to stay alive. The left-wing route would be a Revolutionary one that would continue with collectivisation and industrialisation but also explore ideas around workers' democracy (as with some of the Spanish trees).

Another option would be an NKVD coup, with Zehzov taking over, although I'm not sure how that would be functionally different from Stalinism (perhaps he takes over from Stalin on the promise to curb the purges). There would be some interesting NKVD-Army rivalry dynamics in this scenario (e.g. a counter-coup by the army).

Whatever happens there should probably be some acknowledgement of the international fallout - since the Soviet Communist Party was perceived as the leader of the worldwide Communist movement, and given that most Communist Parties in other countries had already purged anti-Stalinists, it'd be good if a change of leadership in the USSR was represented by changes of leadership/splits in other Communist Parties (this would probably mess up the Spanish Civil War a bit though!)
 
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Treviranus

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Personally, I would be highly disappointed if there would not be a monarchist and a Trotskyist path. Looking back at the vanilla game, maybe Tukhachevsky could play a more important role.
 
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pheonicia

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I don't see Trotsky being added to the soviet union since he's kind of good as a mexico challenge run, but I could be wrong. Definitely expect a monarchist path of some sort, though I doubt it'll be any more legitimate than grabbing some woman off the street and calling her Anastasia to use as a puppet figure or to cement a claim of being 'Tsar'.

Edit: A military coup would be a fun path to democracy though since, as I understand it, members of the military who got to leave russia and see other countries were the most sympathetic to democratic ideals.
 
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Feels like I have written a lot on this subject in other threads over the years, so I won't spill much digital ink on it this time.

I think it would be a mistake to put any effort into non-communist alternate history.

I think the Soviet Union's starting situation should be tweaked. It should be either get a unique mobilization law to start with or early mobilization and be restricted to this until certain conditions are met(like MR Pact or the explosion of a major war elsewhere). The Soviet Union wasn't on a war footing in terms of economic mobilization in 1936, although it was to a certain extent in a position to become so because the Soviet Union had always been an embattled state.

Poland had one of the largest armies in Europe at this time, and the Soviets in turn felt they needed to be ready for a challenge from not just Poland but from the United Kingdom. Essentially there were competing factors in the minds of the Soviet ruling bureaucracy. On one hand, they perceived the United Kingdom as enemy number one. During the Russian Civil War, Britain launched an invasion of Soviet territory from the Caucasus, and coordinated invasions by its allies like France in Ukraine and the United States in Archangel. This mostly proved haphazard adeventures that were aborted due to military failure or domestic political pressure at home, but this hand a lingering effect in Soviet politics.

The Soviets identified Britain as the main force behind 'world capitalism', and thus believed that any attempt to destroy the Soviet Union would necessarily involve Britain. This is also key to understanding the psychology that led to the MR Pact. They saw the threat of Germany as the 30's went on, but believed that the 'main threat' was still Britain; that Germany would never invade the Soviet Union without tacit British encouragement or even a joint alliance.

The second thing to realize is that the Soviet Union was no longer about world revolution at this point in history. In fact this had been ditched in reality before the Russian Civil War was even over. Lenin cooperated with the Weimar government to provide weapons needed to crush the German communists, the Soviets turned over Iranian communists to Iran as a sign of good faith, the Soviets abandoned all pretense of communist revolution in Turkey by ordering the communists to cooperate with the nationalist(who in turn massacred them), the same in China, etc. It goes on.

Soviet politics by the mid 1920's had shifted away from fostering revolution to consolidating the Soviet Union's position as a stable member of international politics. Make no mistake, this is not the same as saying that the Soviet had good intentions. Much like Russia today, the Soviet Union was concerned with 'securing its sphere' and ensuring that its neighbors would not become part of a potential anti-Soviet military coalition. This was the main concern of Stalin. There is some pretty recent scholarship that looks more in depth at this, Norman Naimark's Stalin and the Fate of Europe: The Postwar Struggle for Sovereignty is what I'd recommend.

All this to say that some grand European conquest should not be a part of a Stalinist USSR focus tree. Stalinist ambitions should be mostly regional in nature, so far as proactive policy goes.

I think the Great Purge should be expanded upon as a mechanic and have a greater effect. There should be no ability to cheat your way out of it by a quick war with Finland or Romania. I think the purge penalties should actually be even more severe than they are now, but I think this would have to be counterbalanced by reworked logistics mechanics so that the main obstacle to the German advance in the first year of the war in the east is supply lines.

By expanding the purge, I think this also creates more room to differentiate other communist alternate history paths.

The obvious one to many people here is the Left Opposition led by Trotsky, although at this point it was defeated and its leaders in exile or imprisoned. In the game I think this could work by opting not to undergo the purge. The result is that the military should become afraid of falling victim to a purge and begin a coup with Trotsky at the helm. This should involve a ferocious civil war.

Ideologically, Trotsky was strongly opposed to the turn of the Soviet Union away from world revolution, so a left opposition USSR should emphasize aggressive conquest in the ultimate aim of making a world socialist republic. I see no reason why this couldn't indeed even be a formable entity like the anarchists in spain have.

I think a more interesting an plausible alternative would be a Right Opposition Soviet Union led by Bukharin. The Right Opposition was also defeated by this time, but it had widespread sympathy by a lot of people even among the bureaucracy. The reason is that Bukharin opposed crash industrialization and supported a more measured program of industrialization that would not squeeze the peasants dry. In 1936 the head of the NKVD is Genrikh Yagoda, an old associate of Bukharin. I don't think it's ridiculously implausible that some elements of the bureaucracy including the NKVD become wary of an impending purge and decide to pre-empt it by getting rid of Stalin and putting someone at the helm who might restore stability to the countryside.

Right Opposition Soviet Union would thus bypass the military penalties that would come with a Great Purge as well as the military and economic damage that would come from a Civil War. I think this could be balanced by having the least potential for a rapid economic expansion in comparison to Stalinist and Trotskyist paths. Bukharin was known for his opposition to mass industrialization because he anticipated exactly the kind of problems that did in fact occur with the food supply.

I see Right Opposition Soviet Union as having some of the most interesting potential. Historians are divided about Bukharin. The traditional view is that he was kind of a Soviet Deng Xiaoping, that his rule would have led to the gradual creation of a system like modern China. Others, including his contemporaries like founder of the Italian Communist Party Amadeo Bordiga tended to see Bukharin's position as being more in line with Lenin had preached before his death: basically preserving the Soviet Union as a fortress of communism until the opportunity to sponsor a new world revolution arose.

I think it could be interesting to see a Right Opposition Soviet Union having an option between going with a more conservative path, or perhaps reconciling with the Left Opposition in a recreation of the old United Opposition and pushing world revolution.

There's still other possibilities for alternate branches within Stalinism too, in my opinion. Although Stalin and his cohorts no longer believed that the Soviet Union could or should sponsor violent revolutions with the aim directly creating a worldwide socialist state, they did flirt with the idea of basically becoming the world headquarters of a broader 'anti-colonial' uprising. This was the Soviet orientation towards Saudi Arabia, which the Soviets could be used as a staging ground to supplant British and French colonialism in the Arab World. This dream came to an end when Stalin had the ambassador to King Ibn Saud executed, as the ambassador was a close personal friend of the King. He was sufficiently enraged that he cut diplomatic ties with the Soviet Union all together for the rest of the latter's existence.

We saw a milder form of this strategy adopted by the Soviet Union in the cold war. The Soviets did not believe that an anti-colonial revolution was the same thing as a communist revolution, but that the former could set the stage for the latter(at a conveniently indefinite point in the future, of course). Personally I think a campaign where the Soviets stir up trouble against the British in India and can potentially liberate India, Arabia, and China against the British, French, and Japanese could be extremely fun.

I frankly see no real point in some kind of monarchist path. Not only is it absurdly implausible, in practice it would just play like a more boring version of the potential communist paths above. If it doesn't offer anything new or interesting from a gameplay perspective, then I don't see how it would add anything to the game.
 
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Hi guys, with the Soviet Rework eventually coming this means we will get some alt hist. Do you guys now of any possible Alt Hist for the Soviets? I know a lot about ww2 history but not so much about the intricacy of the countries politics during the interwar and possible different outcomes that could ave happened no matter how much of a stretch they are.

Would it be possible for a Romanov to get into power and what about a Fascist Russian Far east supported by the Japanese as that is where the Russian Fascists were.


I had some suggestions for alternative leaders with different bonuses (as well as giving Stalin some sort of industrialization bonus, considering he was mainly focused on industrializing his country)
 

pheonicia

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Doesn't the Soviet Union have a Trotsky path now? Just never do the Purge.

Or did that get patched out at some point?
I'm sure that's still in, but with a hypothetical rework the purge would hopefully be redone from scratch, annulling the current state of affairs.
 
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There are plenty of paths (for the game) to stay if not in the line of completely possible then to some extent still logical - and they all are about internal struggle inside the communist party and involvement of NKVD, Comintern and army in this fight.

But as we all know, it is PDX we are speaking about, so we better be ready for the outright ridiculous turns as Romanov return or Kerensky return. Crowd asks for the memes, you know...
 
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Taniwha

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There's plenty of interesting alternate history situations that could be explored in a Soviet DLC.


Instead, however, we will get the Return of Trotsky, the Return of the Romanovs (I'm giving five percent odds on them doing a surviving Anastasia for memes)) and the Return of Kerensky.

Paradox only giving one monarchist path rather than three will be treated as a commitment to historical accuracy.
 
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GrounchoVilla

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There's plenty of interesting alternate history situations that could be explored in a Soviet DLC.


Instead, however, we will get the Return of Trotsky, the Return of the Romanovs (I'm giving five percent odds on them doing a surviving Anastasia for memes)) and the Return of Kerensky.

Paradox only giving one monarchist path rather than three will be treated as a commitment to historical accuracy.

Bukharinites, Nazbols, Makhnovists and other more minor ideological groupings will be most disappointed.
 

Spelaren

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Perhaps more USSR meddling in China somehow? Sponsoring Nat China, Sinkiang or Communist China? Or intervening directly in the sino-jap war and annexing Manchuria later.
 

Casko

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Honestly, USSR in game, is so important as communist state for most every other country's alt-history focus to function. So I'd Hope, there's less crazy out of whack Alt-History stuff like Romanovs (even if that is quite tasty sounding meme to me to be fair). And instead have things like "Soviet-Italian Friendship Treaty" Reaffirmed, where Italy and Soviets can do a light version of "Unholy Alliance" and partition Balkans and Turkey between each other.

Similarly things like Stalin's pro-Russian and Cultural revival movements and decrees, could lead to what basically would be considered a type of National Socialism, and allow for a Fascist path where Stalin stays in power, and go more for more Nationalistic Russia with socialist character. which could lead to things like Ukraine getting uppity, or some such.

Similarly for more Alt-History paths, you could have Trotsky, even if he historically had no real support left in Russia, and was never liked all that much by the Communist party in the first place to return, or some other minor changes to how to spread communism, or simply stick with Stalin's Socialism in one state path and prepare for the inevitable anti-Comintern assault.
 
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Xerberous

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There are plenty of paths (for the game) to stay if not in the line of completely possible then to some extent still logical - and they all are about internal struggle inside the communist party and involvement of NKVD, Comintern and army in this fight.

But as we all know, it is PDX we are speaking about, so we better be ready for the outright ridiculous turns as Romanov return or Kerensky return. Crowd asks for the memes, you know...

On the hand, I agree; apart from struggles within the КПСС there are no real plausible alt-history option for SOV - but to be honest, as a non-Russian, non-historian my interest in these internal struggles is somewhere around not-existing. So yes, bring the Romanovs, bring Trotsky and – most important – bring interesting gameplay with them. With very few exceptions (e. g. Germany, if you ignore von Mackensen) the alt-history stuff is broken by design and beyond any repair when viewed from the plausibility perspective. Focus on the gameplay and ensure that the Historical AI-Behavior check box deserve its name, then everything’s fine.
 
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CrazyZombie

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On the hand, I agree; apart from struggles within the КПСС there are no real plausible alt-history option for SOV - but to be honest, as a non-Russian, non-historian my interest in these internal struggles is somewhere around not-existing. So yes, bring the Romanovs, bring Trotsky and – most important – bring interesting gameplay with them. With very few exceptions (e. g. Germany, if you ignore von Mackensen) the alt-history stuff is broken by design and beyond any repair when viewed from the plausibility perspective. Focus on the gameplay and ensure that the Historical AI-Behavior check box deserve its name, then everything’s fine.
As a Russian "heard something about history" kind of player, I can assure you that intrigues inside the Party make Game of Thrones look pretty innocent in comparison and the scale. And variations based on this still can be interesting and different from each other... if only not the poor imagination of PDX, which would be the reason behind future Soviet expansion being complete mess.
 
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