Alsace-Lorraine and La Resistance

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Ceorl

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Couldn't find a comparable thread, so I wanted to discuss for feedback and suggestions.

With the La Resistance DLC, Alsace-Lorraine becomes problematic for the Fall of France as Fascist Germany. Specifically, I don't like holding France due to the high resistance values and prefer to turn the territory over to Vichy or a puppet. The former is problematic since you are not allied (and cannot transfer territory) and will have to wait for Vichy to join the Axis. A puppet France is problematic because of Alsace-Lorraine ("AL").

Specifically, AL is a possible German core that you need to hold for seventy days in order to core. In contrast, German gains a Polish core through the Danzig or War focus. After declaring war Germany can simply occupy Danzig and core it. This is great for a puppet Poland as the game will not turn over your cores to the puppet. You can defeat Poland, core Danzig and then promptly form the puppet government. You cannot do this with France.

First, under the focus, Germany must occupy and hold both AL and Luxemborg for 70 days to core both. Second, AL houses the Maginot Line which is practically impregnable. It is possible to take it, but 9 times out of the 10 the better choice is simply to bypass the Line and by extension AL. Combined a problem occurs when France falls.

When France surrenders the Vichy event immediately fires. As discussed above, I do not like creating Vichy and prefer a puppet. But it's ability to form is dependent on all related cores you control having 80% compliance. When France falls there will likely still be British troops in country and unoccupied provinces. Both are likely to remain Free French requiring some cleanup by the German player.

Normally this doesn't matter. The collaboration score fires on the territories you control when France falls, you immediately create the puppet and any subsequently conquered French land goes to the puppet. But if you want to control AL, you need to secure it and then wait 70 days. If, while waiting the 70 days, you take a French province its compliance defaults to 0% as the collaboration score modifier already applied and you lose the ability to create the puppet. On the other hand, if you create the French puppet immediately, AL goes to the puppet and you lose the ability to core AL and Luxembourg.

The only workaround I can find (assuming you don't create Vichy) is to first conquer AL, fire the event, wait 70 days, and then conquer France (this might be incorrect, France may need to fall first but haven't tested). But doing this flies in the face of reasonable military strategy. Not only is AL tougher than a coffin nail (thanks in part to the AI insistence on keeping excessive divisions there) but the focus of your fighting should move you away from AL (as the Germans did in real life).

Under the current focus tree, I'm not sure on the best fix as the related France focus tree (which could grant the core ala Poland) is normally bypassed due to Poland. Reworking the entire script by, for example, giving Germany a preexisting core on AL and having the focus event only apply to Luxembourg seems like the best choice.
 
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Spelaren

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Couldn't find a comparable thread, so I wanted to discuss for feedback and suggestions.

With the La Resistance DLC, Alsace-Lorraine becomes problematic for the Fall of France as Fascist Germany. Specifically, I don't like holding France due to the high resistance values and prefer to turn the territory over to Vichy or a puppet. The former is problematic since you are not allied (and cannot transfer territory) and will have to wait for Vichy to join the Axis. A puppet France is problematic because of Alsace-Lorraine ("AL").

Specifically, AL is a possible German core that you need to hold for seventy days in order to core. In contrast, German gains a Polish core through the Danzig or War focus. After declaring war Germany can simply occupy Danzig and core it. This is great for a puppet Poland as the game will not turn over your cores to the puppet. You can defeat Poland, core Danzig and then promptly form the puppet government. You cannot do this with France.

First, under the focus, Germany must occupy and hold both AL and Luxemborg for 70 days to core both. Second, AL houses the Maginot Line which is practically impregnable. It is possible to take it, but 9 times out of the 10 the better choice is simply to bypass the Line and by extension AL. Combined a problem occurs when France falls.

When France surrenders the Vichy event immediately fires. As discussed above, I do not like creating Vichy and prefer a puppet. But it's ability to form is dependent on all related cores you control having 80% compliance. When France falls there will likely still be British troops in country and unoccupied provinces. Both are likely to remain Free French requiring some cleanup by the German player.

Normally this doesn't matter. The collaboration score fires on the territories you control when France falls, you immediately create the puppet and any subsequently conquered French land goes to the puppet. But if you want to control AL, you need to secure it and then wait 70 days. If, while waiting the 70 days, you take a French province its compliance defaults to 0% as the collaboration score modifier already applied and you lose the ability to create the puppet. On the other hand, if you create the French puppet immediately, AL goes to the puppet and you lose the ability to core AL and Luxembourg.

The only workaround I can find (assuming you don't create Vichy) is to first conquer AL, fire the event, wait 70 days, and then conquer France. But doing this flies in the face of reasonable military strategy. Not only is AL tougher than a coffin nail (thanks in part to the AI insistence on keeping excessive divisions there) but the focus of your fighting should move you away from AL (as the Germans did in real life).

Under the current focus tree, I'm not sure on the best fix as the related France focus tree (which could grant the core ala Poland) is normally bypassed due to Poland. Reworking the entire script by, for example, giving Germany a preexisting core on AL and having the focus event only apply to Luxembourg seems like the best choice.
You should be able to choose which territory you release, or return to a country.
 

Vin55

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And why does it even matter as Germany against ai? I never play with spys except for rroting out resistance and getting the buff there, always go for civillian oversight and I never have resistance higher than 40 percent with enough guns. I can sealion and kill the allies. Then you have 1 year of peace/build up and you kill Russia. By then you have 30-50 percent of collaboration build up so you are fine to go.
 
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Ceorl

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@Spelaren

Only if the faction is part of your alliance and not relating to cores. So you cannot transfer to territory to Vichy France until it joins the Axis. And you cannot transfer control of AL from your French Puppet to you as AL is a French, but not German, core.

@Vin55

Why does anything matter against the AI? For fun. If you want a better challenge I suggest using Expert AI. Plus if you were taking 40% resistance with Civilian Oversight (which means high garrison numbers and no damage reduction) on multiple provinces and don't have any armor protection in the garrison you might want to check your garrison logs and be surprised by the casualties. In one Soviet game, I took more casualties from my occupation policies advancing into Germany than I did in combat (helped me appreciate the new SMERSH suppression bonus).
 

Ceorl

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@STABBY5
The focus requires Germany to have full control of AL in order to activate. A puppet cannot hold it.

@Zauberelefant
I'm not sure on the full script trigger for Fall of France as I've seen different territory divisions playing as Italy, but the default division, if Vichy is created, is for Germany to gain Northern France, including AL, and the Atlantic Coastal territories. Vichy gets most of Southern France. By default, a German player can pursue the focus (never checked to see if the AI does).

@Ketchup & friends
I agree that Germany is too strong, but I don't believe this design is intentional. First, the Poland puppet activates in a way that makes sense within the campaign and Germany's existing focus tree. The French puppet does not. Second, the German player, assuming he wants to core AL (which most of us do), is disincentived from creating a Puppet France which is one of the key features of the DLC.

If the designers had intended for the Germany player to either have a Puppet France and No AL or a Vichy France and German AL, I think the systems and triggers would be clearer. Certainly, I would have expected the Germany player to have a relatively greater understanding and control over events rather than the requiring the dozens of hours of play to notice the issue.

This may be a bug reflecting overlapping design problems with the DLC and the Germany Focus rework, but I'm not sure. My guess is that different people worked on each at different times and this issue slipped through the cracks as there appears to be no easy coding fix. Yes Germany is strong, but that shouldn't be a sufficient rationale for not bringing possible design errors to light.
 
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Secret Master

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In my experience, defeating the allies prevents you from taking the AL focus, because all french territory gets returned to Vichy for some reason.

Wait, what?

I'm pretty sure I've used the AL focus as Germany in a normal "create Vichy" playthrough as Germany since LaR came out.

Or do you mean that you can't run the focus once you have gone to a peace conference with the Allies?
 

desphorin

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In my experience, defeating the allies prevents you from taking the AL focus, because all french territory gets returned to Vichy for some reason.
Hmm I dont have this issue. Normally at peace deal I will take AL and all colonies of the French, then puppet what's remaining. So now i can core the land and my puppet will annex Vichy after a day or two of the peace deal.
 

Ceorl

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To clear up any confusion, I'm discussing the narrow period at the start of the game when France falls and not the peace deal screen. That gap is where the AL problem exists. The longer it takes you to to win, i.e. moded game or MP, the more problematic the issue becomes.
 
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If the designers had intended for the Germany player to either have a Puppet France and No AL or a Vichy France and German AL, I think the systems and triggers would be clearer. Certainly, I would have expected the Germany player to have a relatively greater understanding and control over events rather than the requiring the dozens of hours of play to notice the issue.
The devs apparently intend the player to have Vichy, no puppet France, and allow coring AL.
But It seems that it was implemented poorly, like many other things.