Allow Xenophobic empires to use diplomacy

[Melabranche]

Unfortunately, must agree on this:

No species with baseline-human psychology (which all species in Stellaris have, currently) is going to accept an alien species doing that to them.

Especially - baseline-human psychology, which all species in Stellaris have, currently.
Yes, currently. Then, until we have "something" to make our species alien (proper psychology, techs, mentality, govs, etc), advanced diplomacy (not that "click on research and then on logo to know everything") and systems / options / etc to make / see diversity in every new created race. Until then, no matter what portrait we pick, we play humans. And by that "lack of options", we should turn a blind eye on some features, and / or allow them to exist, until someone do things right. And this time, this blind eye, is - Allow xenophobic empire to use some diplomacy.

 

[Derp]

Nothing is stopping xenophobes from using diplomacy, same as how nothing is forcing them to purge.

 

[BrokenSky]

Purging is a universally Bad Thing.

Think about this critically for a moment- that a government is willing to purge outsiders or unruly aspects of their own population doesn't prevent them from being really freaked out by some other empire going around exterminating people! They don't mind purging, but damn straight they'd be angry about the possibility of getting purged.

We eat cows. And pigs and chickens. We literally have whole slave species we cultivate just so we can kill and eat them. I'm sure some aliens would be horrified by that, but some wouldn't be. For some that would be horrific (imagine if humans ate you! ), but for us it's normal. The whole point of having differing ethics is that nothing is universally good or bad; it depends on your ethos.

Or what about vegetables. For plant-phenotypes, imaging finding out that some humans only eat plants because they don't want to eat anything too close to them phenotype wise. To those plant-aliens, vegetarians must come across as massive xenophobic purgers. Or more likely, the plant species wouldn't care, about this or that purging, unless it was specifically their own species.

But yeah it makes sense to have any ethos get upset when you purge their primary species, but not when you're just purging in general. Most personality types wouldn't really care about that very much. Hegemonic imperialist for example would be more interested in allying that strong empire on their borders so that they'll go off and purge some-one else than how they treat their civilians.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

We eat cows. And pigs and chickens. We literally have whole slave species we cultivate just so we can kill and eat them. I'm sure some aliens would be horrified by that, but some wouldn't be. For some that would be horrific (imagine if humans ate you! ), but for us it's normal. The whole point of having differing ethics is that nothing is universally good or bad; it depends on your ethos.

Or what about vegetables. For plant-phenotypes, imaging finding out that some humans only eat plants because they don't want to eat anything too close to them phenotype wise. To those plant-aliens, vegetarians must come across as massive xenophobic purgers. Or more likely, the plant species wouldn't care, about this or that purging, unless it was specifically their own species.

Again, try thinking critically about this for a moment.

Purging is, specifically, systematic state-enacted genocide. Nobody is going to tolerate another government doing that, regardless of their own use of the policy, because they have every reason to fear it being done to them. This isn't a "we eat meat why would aliens think twice about eating us" thing, it's a "damn straight other empires hate you for purging even if they purge themselves, they don't want to be purged by aliens" one.

 

[Derp]

Hegemonic imperialist for example would be more interested in allying that strong empire on their borders so that they'll go off and purge some-one else than how they treat their civilians.

...or they'd use said empire's status as a pariah state to form a coalition against it and destroy it, coincidentally getting the lion's share of the taken worlds while crippling a genocidal warmonger of a neighbour.

 

[The Founder]

We eat cows. And pigs and chickens. We literally have whole slave species we cultivate just so we can kill and eat them. I'm sure some aliens would be horrified by that, but some wouldn't be. For some that would be horrific (imagine if humans ate you! ), but for us it's normal. The whole point of having differing ethics is that nothing is universally good or bad; it depends on your ethos.

The difference is that those animals are not considered sentient unlike every Empire building Species in Stellaris.
Worth maybe developing food production until we no longer have to kill them? Perhaps.
Sentient? Nope.

 

[Lady Lacroix]

The fundamental problems with xenophobia are:

A: It double penalizes you in the same place

B: it isn't represented properly

No ethic should double ping you on the same state, directly or indirectly as far as I'm concerned. That's just bad balance

Furthermore, Xenophobia is supposed to represent your outward attitude towards others and NOT how they perceive you. It'd make more sense if instead of diplomatic penalties for xenophobia to block off certain diplomatic actions. (Federations for basic xenophobia, Alliances for fanatics (But not defensive pacts))

 

[Madzai]

Purging is a universally Bad Thing.

Think about this critically for a moment- that a government is willing to purge outsiders or unruly aspects of their own population doesn't prevent them from being really freaked out by some other empire going around exterminating people! They don't mind purging, but damn straight they'd be angry about the possibility of getting purged.

I think you live into some kind of alternative universe with Unicorns and rainbows. Otherwise, a quick peek into human history will prove you wrong. And i'm not talking only about XX century stuff - the whole human history is about en-mass purging and genocide. The fact that people lack tools to complete erase the whole nation don't mean they weren't willing too. And that a bunch of other nations don't give a damn or even secretly cheer it (and sometimes even not secretly).

And yeah, main problem with purging is that i can't really properly kick unwanted POPs out while still holding the planet. Which is BS from logic standpoint. Relocating the whole planet POP mustn't be harder than purging them in FTL age.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

If 80% of the galaxy species are okay with purging then purging is a norm and refuse to do so is a deviancy. If whole galaxy is holding slaves then slavery is a norm.
But when we have 50\50 or 30\30\30 then things are tricky.
Lots of people assume that standart government in Stellaris is a moral democracy with no acceptance for slavery and purging. Even in Earth history things could go different - japanese samurai saw no problem in killing prisoners and there were no uproar is someone executed their captives. Aztecs hardly will be horrified if they meet someone who will kill their own people. Why should it be different for sci-fi space empires?

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Lots of people assume that standart government in Stellaris is a moral democracy with no acceptance for slavery and purging.

Acceptence for slavery is justified. And I agree with all of that.

If we are talking about purging, we already wrote an explanation its not becouse of acceptance, but becouse of paranoia that drives the hate of xenophobic empires against you. Few people wrote this and you still refuse to listen. This is not about morality, this is about growing suspitions.
About your samurai example, you cant be more wrong. They had a traditions of going long vendetas for the slightest wrongdoings and using proxy revenge for a sloughter, and most of samurai clans werent friendly one to each other. About Mezoamericans I cant write about their psychology, but most of so-called "purging" they did was not purging at all, the cases of mass sacrifices were rare, and in most cases only during the catastrophies like famine or deseases. And the thing is the human civilisations that liked purging were genneraly hated and condemned by everybody around. Mongols, Aztecs, Assyrians, Romans - they all had a very bad relations with every single neithbour they had. Belgians and US were condemned for their purging even by friendlies. Nazi Germany were critised for their policy in Poland even by their allies - Hungarians, Italians and Japanese. I admit that mass killing of Jews was the laest controversial thing at the time, some german allies or even mortal enemies accepted, were indifferent or supported that. Thats the case against what I say, but it would be insincere about not mentioning that.

 

[Madzai]

And the thing is the human civilisations that liked purging were genneraly hated and condemned by everybody around. Mongols, Aztecs, Assyrians, Romans - they all had a very bad relations with every single neithbour they had.

... you mean by the Counties the population of those they purged, right?

Belgians and US were condemned for their purging even by friendlies.

You mean a condemnation for political reasons, like today - bitch about something in country A and ignore the same in country B. It's about politics and not about purges itself.

Nazi Germany were critised for their policy in Poland even by their allies - Hungarians, Italians and Japanese.

Yeah, yeah... "If only we know!!! We surely...", "We tried to object, but we are of small county and cannot do a thing about ze ebil Germans..." - a song well known.

Most of your examples are ether stating the obvious - "they hate us if we purge THEIR POPS", condemnation due to political gain or lies to avoid responsibility.
Try better.

And i really want you to extend about "Rome was hated by everyone because of purges". I think it had be more about Rome being a power-horse of it's era.

 

[I am Sovereign]

The robots that do exists ARE literal toasters. Or Dishwashers. Or Selfdriving Cars.

Even the T1 Robots of Stellaris are something entirely else. First steps on the path to true Cognitive AI.


Mass suicide, but from all those billions of sentients not one said "but I do not want to die"? Why where all those people forcefully killed, if they did not commit any crime? If they were not, how many else did not agree? Not enough to form a few full pop units afterwards?
You are a collectivist soceity. They were all forcefully killed by the Government.

The "Upload Brain data", now that does sound viable. I think there is already a quest and archievement somewhat like that in the game.
However that implies it is possible technologically in the first place. And the person in the new body is considered a actually continuation of the Original entity. The continuity flaw might apply here, wich might lead to people disagreeing - both locally and in other empires.

Right now I think Robots as handeled by the game are not differentiated enough to handle true "uploading of the species". I mean what about the various traits they had before?
What about Xenophobia? Right now Robots neither trigger nor suffer it (the opposite would mean they always suffer it). Unless the Devs add a concept like "culture" that can trigger Xenophobia instead.

Are you resistant to humor? Maybe I should have wrote that you are calling "synths" toasters.
And it was a refference to the quote "Its the 21st century. Gays do exist. Get over it"

-Mass Suicide from a species with a collective/consensus mind. ;D

 

[Pyramid_Head]

And the thing is the human civilisations that liked purging were genneraly hated and condemned by everybody around. Mongols, Aztecs, Assyrians, Romans - they all had a very bad relations with every single neithbour they had

Seriously? That's ...wow.

Anyway, you base all your explanation about on a basis of Earth history where TODAY purging is considered wrong. Should Aztecs won, we would have morning shows about sacrifices to the Sun and Flower Wars as a yearly analog of Rio Festival. Stellaris is a game about different races, ethoses, governments. Different everything. And occasionally several species could view extermination of others in a "Woe to the defeated" approach.
Ok, I'll try to give you an example of how other ethoses could view purging:
Militarists: "Woe to the defeated" to the victor goes the spoils. Only those who can profect themselves and fight deserve to live in this galaxy.
Spiritualists: Their weak gods could not protect them. Let pagans kill each other.
Collectivists: Their society was weak, unable to unite before such a grave threat, that will serve others a lesson on how our ways are superior.
Materialists: They should predicted and calculated such outcome. Like we do. Speak softly and carry a big gun.
I am sure even individualists and pacifists could be seen with some way of accepting purge as well.

 

[dinhpham]

Everything thing will gradually drift past.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Materialists: They should predicted and calculated such outcome. Like we do. Speak softly and carry a big gun.

Quoting you: Seriously? That's...wow.

 

[Madzai]

Quoting you: Seriously? That's...wow.

Actually @Pyramid_Head was a bit tad mild about Materialists - a Scientists or science oriented society without a proper touch of humane can wander into areas, that can horrify even Warmongers, Collectivists or Religious Fanatics. It's not represented in Materialist description still.

 

[Saviour of Galaxy]

Actually @Pyramid_Head was a bit tad mild about Materialists - a Scientists or science oriented society without a proper touch of humane can wander into areas, that can horrify even Warmongers, Collectivists or Religious Fanatics. It's not represented in Materialist description still.

The matterialist guys who talk like that arent calculating. They are just dumb. Its completely opposing to being reasonable and calculating. They could be next target and should now that (second pacifist ideology can calm them down a bit anyway).

 

[Haccoude]

I think you live into some kind of alternative universe with Unicorns and rainbows. Otherwise, a quick peek into human history will prove you wrong. And i'm not talking only about XX century stuff...

Even if we do limit it to the XX century, there wasn't just one genocide which everyone united to defeat, there were an absolutely incredible amount of genocides that happened during it, and the responses and even legacies were varied. How many outside of the Armenians and the Pacifist and/or Xenophile parts of the Western world cared/cares about the Armenian genocide? How many outside of the victims and the Pacifist and/or Xenophile parts of the Western world cared/cares about the Japanese war crimes? What about the racial/ethnic cleansing where the Deniers/Apologists and "Victim Advocates" are of the opposite political fringes compared to the Holocaust, such as the Holodomor and other Soviet crimes, or the persecution of whites in the name of De-Colonisation or De-Imperialism. There are numerous ways of ignoring or justifying an act that fundamentally is: "This people is not part of a perfect world, let's work towards making the world more perfect"

On a more historic, and hopefully less controversial note, "Woe to the conquered" was a rather common attitude among many peoples and nations. No matter how abhorrent "A people that cannot defend itself, does not deserve independence/existence" is to those of us with a Pacifist bent, it's sadly been more common than rare historically.

 

[zukodark]

Normal empires should not care that much about purging, unless they are a) their own species, b) the purge is close to their borders or c) the empire is xenophile. Individualists would have a lower tolerance, and collectivists a higher tolerance. This way, xenophile individualists would hate the lost culture, while xenophobe collectivists would give zero shits even if you purge a third of the galaxy, as long as you don't touch them.

About German allies disliking their treatment of the Polish and Jews, the latter are humans too. I think this is one of the cases where galactic politics should not be considered humans in space.

 

[Xoatl]

I realy like your idea of a planetary edict which would enable us to commit genocide in secret. Awesome idea to for the modifier "unconformed rumours" too.

That would be a realy smooth solution.If you want diplomacie while being a fanatic purifier you need to spend good amounts of your influence.


I do not want to trigger anyone but again the Nazis did it the same way. The world was unaware of the full extend what they were realy doing till the concentration camps were liberated by troops.

This would be an excellent addition to wars. Would give extra reason for high defense as a fanatical purifier. If enemy troops occupy on of your planets then all the POPs you purged on it becomes revealed to the galaxy. As the "Space Allies" planet hopped towards the "Space Nazis'" homeworld you get flavour events detailing the extent of genocide on each planet.

Normal empires should not care that much about purging, unless they are a) their own species, b) the purge is close to their borders or c) the empire is xenophile. Individualists would have a lower tolerance, and collectivists a lower tolerance. This way, xenophile individualists would hate the lost culture, while xenophobe collectivists would give zero shits even if you purge a third of the galaxy, as long as you don't touch them.

About German allies disliking their treatment of the Polish and Jews, the latter are humans too. I think this is one of the cases where galactic politics should not be considered humans in space.

I agree about all those qualifiers being added for the purging diplomatic penalty. The Holocaust is the closest thing to what we're talking about that everyone knows about. Don't see how drawing conclusions from it is any more or less wrong than taking examples from Star Trek.