Allow Xenophobic empires to use diplomacy

[Pyramid_Head]

Yeah I get the idea that Xenophobic empires are not made for friendly diplomacy, but at some point it just gets ridiculous.
Diplomatic penalties renders entire concept of diplomacy for xenophobic empires completely useless. Because only entities you can have any form of treaties are Enclaves, others will never ever have any kind of deal with you. Even if they are Xenophobes they will still hate your guts.

Spoiler: Diplomacy screen

Ok, that was after some purging made. Let's see what we have when no purging were made and at initial stages of the game, where all you do is adopt a policy.

Spoiler: Diplomacy screen

It means all your neighboors declare you rival by default and instantly are best friends with each other due to mutual rivals modifier. I played about twenty parties and on about 75% of them it was always the same:
1. You adopt purgingslavery policies
2. Everyone instantly unites against you. No matter who, fanatic xenophobles, militarists, democracies.
3. Several wars in quick succession.
In the end, the only way so far to survive as xenophobic empire I found is to reroll until you will spawn in the corner and can fight one or two empires at best or if enemies have missiles, because then they need x2 fleet power to beat you.

Maybe Xenophobes should be made playable on diplomacy field? Because even with clustered fortresses being wiped out instantly you can't prevent dogpiling of 4-5 empires, rampaging through your territory and you can't make any alliances or defense pacts(maybe occasional, when you have 3-4 mutual rivals).
At some point it became clear that it is not possible for you to reach any positive drelation values and you simply go to diplomacy screen to set war demands. It's like chunk of the game being cut off.
Seriously, diplomatic penalties sometimes remind me about Agressive Expansion from EUIV, where it sometimes were so high, that it would not fade until 1800+ since mid-game.

 

[Derp]

Don't play a genocidal maniac if you want diplomacy to be an option

 

[iniudan]

What derp said, also been xenophobe doesn't mean you have to keep on xeno slavery and purge. There is no negative happiness for having them off for any ethos, only decadent population have negative happiness for having slavery off.

 

[Melabranche]

Rather than change policy / play nice, the "opinion" system should be revamped, because there is no sense in it.
For example, if...
- We start with closed borders (logick)
- And from above, no one know about our policy and what are we doing in our border
- Only our actions can be judged - time of peace, trade, treaty, etc.
- And we can enter dyplomacy with well trained leader, who can do something

And, I was in war with 4-AI Federation, but beacuse I try to play tall, I smashe them... in a very, very, Very Long war. It's posible, but it's hard. But the worse of this, they attack me only because policy I got (all purge was done, before I find them). I attack no one, I live in peace, but... Because they see my policy, they go insane.

 

[extrapancake]

Hive minds dont seem to mind at all whatever atrocities you commit, maybe reduce the malus for hegemonic imperialists and ruthless capitalists and others more concerned with their own interests than being galactic morality police. Possibly the new "neuter" purge option might solve this too, while probably being much less effective and taking longer it might reduce the hit on diplomacy.

 

[Nesos]

Rather than change policy / play nice, the "opinion" system should be revamped, because there is no sense in it.
For example, if...
- We start with closed borders (logick)
- And from above, no one know about our policy and what are we doing in our border
- Only our actions can be judged - time of peace, trade, treaty, etc.
- And we can enter dyplomacy with well trained leader, who can do something

And, I was in war with 4-AI Federation, but beacuse I try to play tall, I smashe them... in a very, very, Very Long war. It's posible, but it's hard. But the worse of this, they attack me only because policy I got (all purge was done, before I find them). I attack no one, I live in peace, but... Because they see my policy, they go insane.

Well, the policy is saying that you're perfectly fine with wiping out alien species, but not killing any of your own species. Why would you trust someone who is okay with killing you, and everyone you love? A diplomatic malus for the policy makes perfect sense.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

What derp said, also been xenophobe doesn't mean you have to keep on xeno slavery and purge. There is no negative happiness for having them off for any ethos, only decadent population have negative happiness for having slavery off.

By this logic we should remove all this mechanics outright

 

[Melabranche]

Well, the policy is saying that you're perfectly fine with wiping out alien species, but not killing any of your own species. Why would you trust someone who is okay with killing you, and everyone you love? A diplomatic malus for the policy makes perfect sense.

Yes and no. It make sense if you see it, but don't make any sense, if have no proof. Read one more time this fragment:

I attack no one, I live in peace

No purges (exept one before I find someone, so no malus - one my pop, and lots of primitive), no wars, border closed, eleven plus "no-agression pact". Got even a trade with one attacker! Peaceful existance of my Colective... But...

Because they see my policy

There is no logic in "everyone see someone policy". Opinion should be based on other criteria like I use in post.

ps. Colective have similar malus.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Right now it's like we are in a pre-patch Europa Universalis IV. Take provinces in a war and half the globe, along with Iceland, are in a coalition against you, with hundreds of years of Agressive expansion decay.
Here, it's a vicious cirle - they rival you because of policies, they ally because mutual rival bonus, if you win a war the penalty will be so huge that they will never ever have any diplomatic relations with you. Purging will only makes things faster.

 

[Elothan]

I might be undarstanding this wrong, but you want all the bonuses of being Xenophobe, but not negatives ?

 

[iniudan]

By this logic we should remove all this mechanics outright

Well you asked for diplomacy, having bigoted policy on top of the xenophobe biggot modifier, kind of what make everyone hate you from the start, you don't want people to chain rival you before you even do anything, then turn them off, that way most will only rival you once you do something.

Also if you want people to not dislike you even more, get vassal/protectorate not conquest. If your are fanatic xenophobe and militarist/collectivist, you can also liberate, then abandon who you liberated, if they survive until you can declare war on them, you got some free conquest, for everyone hate fanatical purifier, so they don't care what you do with them.

 

[Pyramid_Head]

Well you asked for diplomacy, having bigoted policy on top of the xenophobe biggot modifier, kind of what make everyone hate you from the start, you don't want people to chain rival you before you even do anything, then turn them off, that way most will only rival you once you do something.

Do you understand that's exactly like using military access in HOIIV(pre-patch also) to surround your enemy then declaring war ti instantly wipe his armies? In other words - using mechanic exploits to achieve victory.

 

[iniudan]

Do you understand that's exactly like using military access in HOIIV(pre-patch also) to surround your enemy then declaring war ti instantly wipe his armies? In other words - using mechanic exploits to achieve victory.

Well I don't see how having them off is an exploit, xenophobe by itself doesn't mean you are fanatical purifier. As long as xeno don't get on the same planet then your native population, they won't complain about having alien in your empire, on the other end the xeno will, but it can be somewhat countered depending on xeno ethos, your policies and happiness building (which as xenophobe you have at least 1)

Divide through liberation and conquer through vassalisation if you don't want to anger people and do diplomacy. Been xenophobic, if you liberate you create people who dislike each other anyway, so they usually won't get ally unless they share a threat.

 

[Haccoude]

Considering that there's nothing preventing you from taking both Xenophobe (even Fanatic Xenophobe) and Pacifist, there's nothing inherent to Xenophobe on it's own regarding wiping out all other species. That would be (Fan)Xenophobe and Militarist.

 

[Madzai]

Well I don't see how having them off is an exploit, xenophobe by itself doesn't mean you are fanatical purifier. As long as xeno don't get on the same planet then your native population, they won't complain about having alien in your empire, on the other end the xeno will, but it can be somewhat countered depending on xeno ethos, your policies and happiness building (which as xenophobe you have at least 1)

Purging some POPs don't mean that you're a Fanatic Purifier also. It's not a game about XXI century Earth, it's about space where where different races met. Purging will happen, wars will happen, slavery and exploitation will be rampart. If anything most races should start as "True Neutral" - "I don't care", and later forge alliances with some agenda in mind where they really start develop some sort of united approach toward something.

 

[iniudan]

Purging some POPs don't mean that you're a Fanatic Purifier also. It's not a game about XXI century Earth, it's about space where where different races met. Purging will happen, wars will happen, slavery and exploitation will be rampart. If anything most races should start as "True Neutral" - "I don't care", and later forge alliances with some agenda in mind where they really start develop some sort of united approach toward something.

I know, but he asked for diplomacy, for vast majority of AI personality, purge is what they hate the most, so if you purge you usually go on the rival list of a bunch of AI, at which point diplomacy is basically off with them if you are a xenophobic with bigoted policy, as opinion will never recover enough for them to remove rivalry, unless you give extraordinary gift, so just turn the damn thing off, if you want to do diplomacy.

As for slavery, that one was just a suggestion to remove further negative opinion, myself I would mostly just go with regulated, as it is less hated, but depending on your ethos and policy, it is also possible to just control, with slavery off, through happiness, you just have to make sure population don't mix.

 

[Melabranche]

"Those empire will attack me? Are they are friendly, or Blorg-like? Do I need to look for ally, or someone to trade?" - Dyplomacy exist only, if there is unknown, so you can "do" something, by sending diplomat to someone to start taking intel, and by that, find, or not, if someone is good ally, or psycho.
In Stellaris, diplomacy do not exist. Everyone know everything.

I know, but he asked for diplomacy, for vast majority of AI personality, purge is what they hate the most, so if you purge you usually go on the rival list of a bunch of AI, at which point diplomacy is basically off with them if you are a xenophobic with bigoted policy, as opinion will never recover enough for them to remove rivalry, unless you give extraordinary gift, so just turn the damn thing off, if you want to do diplomacy.

How do they know about purges? They see them on their eyes? Someone survive to tell that? Did they see any slaves? Or think they are slaves? Do they see shackle, or bio-brancers? Do they take some research to understand culture / psychology of that race?
Simple questions. Stellaris answer - > One click on any empire emblem, to know that.

Zero information. Zero learning. Zero interaction. Zero unknown. Zero Diplomacy.
This I'am mad about, and, I think, OP. That is the problem with diplomacy - Lack of it.

 

[BrokenSky]

But the problem is that if Xenophobe basically requires you to run purging or slavery, it's a choice between diplomacy or being grossly sub-optimal. And even if you don't do purging your enemies still get -20? (maybe -30?) to accepting any war demands which transfer planets because "might be purged" even if you don't purge, even if they do, even if they're xenophobes and the only planet you're asking to hand over only has aliens and is being liberated. Xenophobes get way too many penalties. Like ridiculous amounts of penalties.

Well, the policy is saying that you're perfectly fine with wiping out alien species, but not killing any of your own species. Why would you trust someone who is okay with killing you, and everyone you love? A diplomatic malus for the policy makes perfect sense.

Depends on context. There are plenty of reasons to trust purging xenophobes from
"we must be tolerant of their ways and customs, no matter how evil they seem. Every position is worthy of consideration" (individualist/materialist/xenophile).
to
"well at least they're honest about it. most of these filthy xenos keep saying they want peace and [closest translation: worthy/honourable foe-hood] I mean how can you have peace with [worthy/honourable foes]? It doesn't even make sense!" (fanatic militarist/xenophobe).

 

[I am Sovereign]

"Those empire will attack me? Are they are friendly, or Blorg-like? Do I need to look for ally, or someone to trade?" - Dyplomacy exist only, if there is unknown, so you can "do" something, by sending diplomat to someone to start taking intel, and by that, find, or not, if someone is good ally, or psycho.
In Stellaris, diplomacy do not exist. Everyone know everything.

How do they know about purges? They see them on their eyes? Someone survive to tell that? Did they see any slaves? Or think they are slaves? Do they see shackle, or bio-brancers? Do they take some research to understand culture / psychology of that race?
Simple questions. Stellaris answer - > One click on any empire emblem, to know that.

Zero information. Zero learning. Zero interaction. Zero unknown. Zero Diplomacy.
This I'am mad about, and, I think, OP. That is the problem with diplomacy - Lack of it.

So true, amen to that.

Also
Even the allies didnt know about the holocaust for a good period of time.

 

[cosmeIII]

"Those empire will attack me? Are they are friendly, or Blorg-like? Do I need to look for ally, or someone to trade?" - Dyplomacy exist only, if there is unknown, so you can "do" something, by sending diplomat to someone to start taking intel, and by that, find, or not, if someone is good ally, or psycho.
In Stellaris, diplomacy do not exist. Everyone know everything.

How do they know about purges? They see them on their eyes? Someone survive to tell that? Did they see any slaves? Or think they are slaves? Do they see shackle, or bio-brancers? Do they take some research to understand culture / psychology of that race?
Simple questions. Stellaris answer - > One click on any empire emblem, to know that.

Zero information. Zero learning. Zero interaction. Zero unknown. Zero Diplomacy.
This I'am mad about, and, I think, OP. That is the problem with diplomacy - Lack of it.

This would be fixed with a spying system or a more developed embassy system. Where setting an embassy in an empire would slowly let you know what they do. You could guess from their initial message too, but that is only for people like fanatical purifiers.

Right now, when I wonder about an empire's actions or diplomacy, I only need to open their diplomacy window and check their ethos and AI behaviour. No real effort to know who or what they are. And no effort in learning about other empires in a game whose mid to late game is all about diplomacy is a mistake to me.