All quiet on the Western Front - Comment Thread

[unmerged(14689)]

Originally posted by AlexanderG
Thats reaching for quite alot.

The Keresnky governments 1918 offensive is what ultimitatly killed the Russian Army. Which in turn then led to the military move against them, the arming of the people, thus the arming of the Commies and then the commie coup.

In this game when Russia is winning the rebelions just break out and keep on going. It seems that its predetermined that 1. Revolts in russia no matter what 2. Commies are in power.

You're right, Alexander. People tend to forget that the end of the Romanov dynasty was NOT the end of the Russian contribution to the war. The Allies were actually not all that displeased with the Provisional Government under Kerensky, because now WWI really did become a war of democracies against (semi-)absolutist regimes.

I'm not saying that Russia would have survived until November 1918 even if Lenin hadn't executed his coup and that all was well in Kerensky's Russia, but the game seems to go for "Russia crashes and burns" too easily. But since this judgement is based solely on Sytass' AAR, I can't be certain, of course...

 

[Deaghaidh]

Maybe this is something to be re-worked in patches or event modifications. Hopefully, we can tweak it to be better.

Though if the revolts happened not because of events but because of some aspects of the russian 'system' that lessened its ability to handle dissent, maybe it will make sense when we're playing the game. Maybe 1914 Russia simply can't handle much 'War Exhaustion' before it all starts falling apart. Though I think given the status of the Eastern front the peace was not terribly realistic (I can see giving up *some* territory, but he got a big swath of Russia without a serious invasion of it)

 

[unmerged(18269)]

I think someone previously said that this peace event should not kick in if its the rebels that control 20% of russian territory.
I think that would be fair.


Also, I think maybe giving Russia more resilience. Because it seems to me the only thing that pulled it of Austria was the rebelions. Which, again dont make much sense. Not in the state, the state of almost total victory, they were in.

Russia didnt start seriusly imploding until that 1918 ofensive that just ended the Russian Army AND the communist coup.

 

[unmerged(14689)]

You mean 1917, probably (missed that in your earlier post, too)

 

[unmerged(18269)]

Ah. Of course.
I was using the Russian calander

 

[Gwalcmai]

Originally posted by historycaesar
Germany could declare a colonial war on Portugal I assume...

Hmm, good idea. Start with a colonial war to attack the colonies, simulating the repeated german aggressions on a neutral, then declare full scale war. It'll be somewhat late (first raids into Angola 1914, DOW March 1916) but it might pay off. Portugal will then hastily draft a couple of divisions and send them to France as exp. forces under brit command. That should provide a nice "weak link" in the western front. I'm guessing there'll be no time to let the portuguese soak in the front for 9 months without sufficient replacements, so the link may be a little bit stronger than historically.

 

[Duuk]

Originally posted by AlexanderG
Russia didnt start seriusly imploding until that 1918 ofensive that just ended the Russian Army AND the communist coup.

Ahh but they did. Notice that this 1918 offensive was led by the Kerensky government... meaning that the Russian Revolution had already happened historically. In 1914, Lenin was the spiritual-but-exiled leader of the Bolshevik faction of the Russian Communist Party. The only reason he gained prominence historically was due to his return to Russia at the right time.

The situtation in 1914 is pretty severe for Russia, and (historically speaking) the Tsar was a complete moron for getting involved in World War I. Disconent was very high due to absolutist policy. The 1905 war with Japan had gutted the morale and acumen of the Russian Imperial Forces. Communist agitators (Stalin, Beria, Khruschev) were tossing bombs all over Moskva and Petrograd. The Tsar was reverting to more overt oppression to maintain order in his country, which was on the verge of imploding ***in 1914 without the War!!!*** The Great Father of the Russian People was out of touch with his citizens, and the citizens didn't like his wife all that much. He had singularly failed to produce an heir, and when he did the child was sickly (hemophiliac) which was seen by the Russian peasants as an ill omen. Keep in mind "peasants". Outside of the major cities, Russia was still basically an 18th (1700s) nation. Toss into this mix a low state of industrialization mixed with mobilization and you find out what the Russian AI learned the fun way:

It's all going to fall apart if the war outlasts the 6 month period of nationalism that tends to sprout from a DoW (which I hope is modelled in Vicky!). Once the Russian narod settled down and got over the "Marching Off To Victory" and got an actual taste of hardship, the fall of the Tsar was only a matter of time.

The actual Russian Revolution that caused the Tsar to abdicate had nothing to do with Lenin or Communism. The Tsar's First Minister (Kerensky) informed the Tsar that his reign was no longer acceptable and he would have to abdicate in order to save Russia from complete *internal* collapse. That was the February Revolution (Which occured in early March due to the calendar differences between Gregorian and Julian calendars).

Britain would not let the Tsar and his family exile themselves to the Home Islands, and so the Tsar stayed in-country too long. In effect, the Brits killed Victoria's cousin.

In October, after the failure of the Kerensky government to win the war (blame France for not being able to open up a large enough front. Not their fault, but fun to blame the French ), the Communist Party held a large meeting. The Menshevik Party (which wanted to win the elections and peacibly assume control of Russia) led by Trotsky lost the power struggle to Lenin and his people. That led to Lenin staging a coup. Not a highly successful one, either. It tipped off the Civil War.

So... to get this post on topic for the AAR

Russia in 1914 did really well for itself, and should have made peace in 1915 when they were winning. That would have avoided the Revolution. At the time of this last installment, I would assume that Trotsky's Mensheviks have control of the Russian government. I'd like to see it, really.

-- Duuk of the House of Romanov, Tsar Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russias, Grand Duke of Moscow, etc etc.

 

[unmerged(18269)]

Ahh but they did. Notice that this 1918 offensive was led by the Kerensky government... meaning that the Russian Revolution had already happened historically.

Yes. But it was not 1. Communist Revolution 2. Did not cause Brest-Litovsk treaty with Germany.

The situtation in 1914 is pretty severe for Russia, and (historically speaking) the Tsar was a complete moron for getting involved in World War I

Germany was itching for a fight anyway you count it. Nationalis mwas running high.

It's all going to fall apart if the war outlasts the 6 month period of nationalism that tends to sprout from a DoW (which I hope is modelled in Vicky!). Once the Russian narod settled down and got over the "Marching Off To Victory" and got an actual taste of hardship, the fall of the Tsar was only a matter of time.

This doesnt make much sense considering the fact that the Russians fought for 3 years more or less without any kind of large scale rebelions.

The reason for Russian total collapse ?
Again. Failed offensive means the army just evaporates, Iraq 2003 Style. The commander of the Petrograd Military district, Kornilov?, marches his Army on Petrograd to take power. Keresenky panics, gives out rifles to everyone. The military coup doesnt work out but now everyone has guns, specificly the Communists have guns. They launch a coup. Russia falls into Civil War. Then to buy time the Commies sign Brest-Litovsk.


Anyway. My basic point is that 1. It seems, but based only on this AAR and I could be so completley wrong, this scenaria is determined to have Russia fall apart. 2. Brest Litovsk shouldnt happen because the rebels control 20%. 3. Why doesnt Austria face the same kind of revolutions ? Russia is occupying more then 50% of their land.(And added to this, why doesnt Italy DoW Austria)

 

[Tim O]

Originally posted by AlexanderG
3. Why doesnt Austria face the same kind of revolutions ? Russia is occupying more then 50% of their land.(And added to this, why doesnt Italy DoW Austria)

Looking at the map I don't think that the Russians ever occupy more than 40% of Austria and the Germans and Austria recover half of that land within a year. Also several divisions of irregulars arrise in occupied Hungary. Perhaps they would have been rebels against the government if they had been in lands under controll of the Austrians?

 

[unmerged(18269)]

Looking at the map I don't think that the Russians ever occupy more than 40% of Austria and the Germans and Austria recover half of that land within a year. Also several divisions of irregulars arrise in occupied Hungary. Perhaps they would have been rebels against the government if they had been in lands under controll of the Austrians?

Ok. And Russia breaks out in revolt with 0% of its territory occupied by the Central Powers.

I hope you see the difference, yes ?
Russia=collapse no matter what
Austria=keep on trucking, even when 3 main capitols under control of Russia.

 

[Duuk]

Alex, two words: Domestic Situtation

In 1914, Austria had the lid on the teakettle, so to speak. Not in "good" shape, but not all that far beyond hope.

In 1914, Russia was basically screwed. See above.

The Hapsburgs were a fairly popular monarchy, the main issue in A-H was the political influence of the various minorities within the Empire. The Romanovs wouldn't have lasted until 1920 without divine intervention.

 

[Deaghaidh]

Divine intervention, or a complete difference in intellect and personality of the Monarch, perhaps.

 

[Duuk]

Originally posted by Deaghaidh
Divine intervention, or a complete difference in intellect and personality of the Monarch, perhaps.

To get that result, we need to reselect the Tsarevich Nikolay's teachers from his youth and alter his mental background hugely.

Between the two, my money goes to divine intervention being more likely

 

[Alexander Seil]

Originally posted by Suvorov
Well, the game will end in 1920, so the Soviet Russian menace falls outside the Victoria time frame.

I don't see why Communists should automatically assume power. As such, the Bolshevik wing of the Socialist party got to be in charge through a coup. They didn't become popular until after they had access to the powers inherent in a central government and could thus mobilize certain elements of the populace in their support.

 

[unmerged(19173)]

:rofl: Orthodox Communist is an oxymoron, so funny. It must be Atheist Communist. :rofl:

 

[Tim O]

Originally posted by todorp

:rofl: Orthodox Communist is an oxymoron, so funny. It must be Atheist Communist. :rofl:

Just because the government endorses Atheism doesn't make it so. The majority of the people still followed the Othordox faith even under Stalin.

 

[unmerged(19173)]

Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
Just because the government endorses Atheism doesn't make it so. The majority of the people still followed the Othordox faith even under Stalin.

It happened that I had to study for 4 years Communist ideology and history of the USSR. Almost all churches ware closed/destroyed and 300,000 priests ware sent for re-education from which they didn’t return. In short no one dared to worship any deity, except Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin.

 

[Dark Knight]

Originally posted by Chengar Qordath
Just going off what my history professor told me, so no real strong source. The Zimmerman telegram would not have been a very smart move on Germany's part, so I am inclined to think that it might not have been authentic. The timing was also just a bit too convenient for Britain...

Does he have any evidence for the assertion that it's fake?

People have taken rather a lot of stupid decisions throughout history.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

All the sources I've ever seen have said that the Zimmerman Telegram was real. It was intercepted by British Naval Intelligence, which is not at all surprising considering that the Admiralty's Room 40 was reading pretty much everything the Germans were transmitting during the war (at Jutland, for example, the British knew the Germans were coming out & had their own fleets at sea before the Germans even left port).

 

[Tim O]

Originally posted by todorp
It happened that I had to study for 4 years Communist ideology and history of the USSR. Almost all churches ware closed/destroyed and 300,000 priests ware sent for re-education from which they didn’t return. In short no one dared to worship any deity, except Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin.

A chart on Religion in Russia in Time magazine for May 27, 1996 shows Russian Orthodox as 71.8% of the population in Russia, Muslim 5.5%, Catholic 1.8%, Protestant 0.7%, Buddhist 0.6%, Jewish 0.3%, Other 0.9%; no affiliation 18.9%. Updated December 29, 2001.

http://members.valley.net/~transnat/russrel.html

Obviously this did not stop the majority of Russian citizens from believing in what they wished to, wether they dared do so in public or not. They just kept quiet about it untill it was safe to talk about.