All New Fatherland--Recruitment Thread

[ozman2]

I've just uploaded 0.19 and even though the event series is not online yet, there is an introductory event that makes it an option. I think there are sound arguments on both sides of the issue and maybe in this alternate scenario Mannerheim didn't stop at the Russian border. I have to admit being partial to making it a game option with the default being that it goes to Germany in conformity with the book and the Bitter Peace Event. But I'd like to allow people more time to speak their minds.
I think instead Finland should get that northeastern Norway province.
It is still possible for events to unfold causing Finland to get possession.

In reality, though, the fate of Germany will be decided by events in Asia, when the Americans support the winner of the Asian power struggle. This is one of the main points of the book and the adaptations and it needs to be reflected.

It may be necessary to modify the tech tree so that nukes have to be authorized before they can be used. Otherwise I'll have to figure out how to script the war in the east as a proxy war--perhaps increasingly frequent and severe scripted partisan attacks with manpower drains.

 

[J-S]

That Hungary would have contributed more than Finland in the war effort is completely untrue as far as I know. Even Hitler himself claimed that Finland was the only useful ally that Germany had. Can you prove me yourself right by reliable sources? And there is no sense in giving Hungary the distant lands of Estonia or Ingria. Don't you realize that the linguistic, historical and cultural connections between Finland, Estonia and Ingria is a hundred times greater than the one between Finland and Hungary?

Finland surly was one of the more efficient ally’s but the unwillingness of the Fins to fight deeper in Russia don't really made the Oberkommando to happy

As for Finland's low population issues, Finland was in fact a highly efficient country, and a couple million could be added through the newly gained lands (without Leningrad) as well as refugees from Estonia and possibly other parts of the former USSR. You could represent the linguistic and some financial burdens by a bit of dissent of course.

The Nazis wouldn't have let just people move to Finland like they want I don't have the numbers for Estonia but for example 50% of Czechs, 35% of Ukrainians and 25% of Belarusians should have after the Generalplan Ost undergo germanisation. I would think the numbers for the Baltic would be around them from the Czechs and the other people there would become victims of forced labour. Don't think there would be more than maybe 100,000 or 200,000 people able to flee to Finland in the best case.

EDIT: A little addition, I didn't say Finland was to hold it's own against Germany, I mentioned allying with Sweden forging a military union and acquiring nuclear weapons. Alternatively joining the American alliance having various American bases and nuclear warheads stationed around the Baltic. That may trigger a nuclear crisis of course, which is the whole fun of it.

Even with Sweden it is unlikely the border between Norway and Sweden is too long to defend and Sweden knew that. Sweden gave Germany Military Access in WWII for a reason they knew Germany would have taken it otherwise.
And an Event series in that context would be inevitably led to war what I think if it is the only possible outcome isn't that interesting. Nuclear Warheads that near to Berlin would be impossible to accept for Germany like it would have impossible for the US in Cuba. And again Finland isn't an Island such a scenario would be much more realistic with for example Ireland.
That Germany in such a position wouldn't attack Finland in the moment they try to make a deal with the US I can't imagine.

 

[Samilou]

I'd say the US would do this only in order to gain a brick of negotiation and forcing the Germans to not attack Finland or/and Sweden. The Nukes would of course be placed in places that are easily defended, or hard to access for the Germans, such as Swedish Lappland. Events about the Americans aiding the Swedes in completing the "Göta Kanal" so that they have a passage replacing Öresund, and can send warships and merchant ships to the Baltic. It would take at least several months (it could even turn into a mini-version of Barbarossa) for the Germans in "Fatherland" to completely occupy Finland and Sweden, considering all the gearing for war the Swedes have done and the great gains of military equipment, manpower and war experience for Finland. The terrain, weather and strong militaries of Finland and Sweden is just as much of a hinder as the sea, although the Americans will have to place the warheads away from the coasts and easily conquered territories.

Anyhow the American nuclear deterrent may be enough for the Germans to back down and agree to a compromise, just like the Soviets in the Cuba crisis.



I do believe that the Nazis would have let the Estonians and some Finno-Ugric peoples leave if the Finnish government pressed them into doing that. This would obviously raise Finland' potential power and therefore the Fascist block's. Of course the Germans may have put conditions such as Finland having to ally with German fully, and that they would have to through something in the lines of "racial checks".

 

[unmerged(62478)]

Samilou-You say it would be extremely likely that Finland would participate in the final assault and I say the Germans would starve out the defenders and the city would capitulate, somewhere to wards the end of 1943. After the first attack there was pretty much trench warfare on the Finnish front. If they atleast taken all the land on their East border.

Hungary has done much more in the war effort. They have participated actively in the war effort since the invasion of Yugoslavia, till the bitter end. All that Finland has done is to attack once and then wait till 44 where the soviets have massed troops and have beaten them back.

J-S-Well the total contribution to the war effort is still more important as the efficiency of it.

Everything else is true.

My opinion is that we should vote for the best solution. The decision which suits the most people should be accepted, since the discussion wont bring us far on the long run.

 

[Skarion]

Sweden could produce their own nukes after WW2 (in 1950s we used nukes in subsurface tests).

Even with Sweden it is unlikely the border between Norway and Sweden is too long to defend and Sweden knew that. Sweden gave Germany Military Access in WWII for a reason they knew Germany would have taken it otherwise.

We did it as we wanted to avoid war.

Sure, Germany may had taken us otherwise, but the real point was to avoid war. The same reason as of that the Netherlands and Denmark surrendered so quickly.

And the border between Norway and Sweden are easily defended. You can only cross it at Blekinge or in Härjedalen as of the mountains (that's are the main Soviet planning as well) which is the main reason why the border looks like it does.

German conquest of Sweden would been through paratroopers and transportation of troops to Scania (and other landingsites at the coasts) and then quickly expand inwards.

I doubt it very much that Germany would be putting the thrust through Norway.

 

[J-S]

I'd say the US would do this only in order to gain a brick of negotiation and forcing the Germans to not attack Finland or/and Sweden. The Nukes would of course be placed in places that are easily defended, or hard to access for the Germans, such as Swedish Lappland.

But the Nukes first must reach them the moment they are there where exactly you put them aren't that important because every attack on a country with nuclear weapons led to nuclear retaliation. Like the US with Cuba Germany would Quarantine Finland and attack every ship that tries so breakthrough and again Finland is no Island.

Events about the Americans aiding the Swedes in completing the "Göta Kanal" so that they have a passage replacing Öresund, and can send warships and merchant ships to the Baltic. It would take at least several months (it could even turn into a mini-version of Barbarossa) for the Germans in "Fatherland" to completely occupy Finland and Sweden, considering all the gearing for war the Swedes have done and the great gains of military equipment, manpower and war experience for Finland. The terrain, weather and strong militaries of Finland and Sweden is just as much of a hinder as the sea, although the Americans will have to place the warheads away from the coasts and easily conquered territories.

Hmm.. don't know many warships that are small enough to get through the Göte Kanal.
And even if they need several months (which I seriously doubt considering there are no active Soviet front [you usually don't fight partisans with tank divisions] or a threat of an Invasion from the British Island that binds troops). After blockading the shores and keeping US support away Greater Germany would have all the time in the world.

Sweden could produce their own nukes after WW2 (in 1950s we used nukes in subsurface tests).

Didn't found anything about that only discussion about if Sweden should try to get Nukes or not. Could you show me some information about that? (preferably not in Swedish )

Sure, Germany may had taken us otherwise, but the real point was to avoid war. The same reason as of that the Netherlands and Denmark surrendered so quickly.

Hm.. you really think the Netherlands and Denmark could have fought much longer but surrendered because they wanted to avoid war?

I doubt it very much that Germany would be putting the thrust through Norway.

I guess in this scenario they would attack (or at least threaten to attack) on all fronts possible to prevent that Sweden and Finland can concentrate there forces and defend only one front.

 

[Skarion]

Didn't found anything about that only discussion about if Sweden should try to get Nukes or not. Could you show me some information about that? (preferably not in Swedish )

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/indepth_coverage/military/proliferation/countries/sweden.html

You can also find articles on it in Wikipedia.

Basically Sweden did get nuclear weapons that were steadily improved (and there even was an certain bomber that was constructed by SAAB to use to bomb with).

All nuclear weapons and research was scrapped in 1972 and the former research sites were closed down.

Hm.. you really think the Netherlands and Denmark could have fought much longer but surrendered because they wanted to avoid war?

Yes. We know that for an fact.

Though the "much longer" is probably closer to weeks than anything more.

I guess in this scenario they would attack (or at least threaten to attack) on all fronts possible to prevent that Sweden and Finland can concentrate there forces and defend only one front.

I'd advice you try to drive with a car between Norway and Sweden.

You can only do that easily through the lower passes in Härjedalen and on the western coast.

And Sweden was equipped and could easily defend those. Germany would have enormous losses in case of an invasion would be attempted through there. Think of the idea to invade Switzerland.

An German invasion of Sweden would be by paratroopers and transports into Scania and the eastern coast and then expand inwards and thereby crushing the Swedish resistance between the mountainous Norway and the German might.

 

[Samilou]

Hmm.. don't know many warships that are small enough to get through the Göte Kanal.
And even if they need several months (which I seriously doubt considering there are no active Soviet front [you usually don't fight partisans with tank divisions] or a threat of an Invasion from the British Island that binds troops). After blockading the shores and keeping US support away Greater Germany would have all the time in the world.

I'm talking about completing the channel, both in length and width.

 

[J-S]

And Sweden was equipped and could easily defend those. Germany would have enormous losses in case of an invasion would be attempted through there. Think of the idea to invade Switzerland.

An German invasion of Sweden would be by paratroopers and transports into Scania and the eastern coast and then expand inwards and thereby crushing the Swedish resistance between the mountainous Norway and the German might.

Point is with German troops in Norway it would have been impossible to concentrate the defence on one front. Like I wrote an attack or only the threat of an attack would bind Swedish/Finish troops there and with the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe blockading the shores no US help could come through. I'm not totally against such an event series but most likely the outcome would be a nuclear War and/or occupied Sweden and Finland.

I don't really see why Sweden would risk its well established neutrality for such a risky game. Basically the same thing is valid for Finland as a German ally there chances for territorial gain if they play there Cards right are much greater than against Germany. Against Germany the only chances are with the US in hope of a third World War.

In real history the US made a deal with the Soviets to bring back their nuclear weapons from Turkey in exchange for the Soviets not bringing Nuclear weapons to Cuba and I don’t know what equivalent deal in the Fatherland scenario Germany could offer the US.

If such an Event series becomes part of the Mod I would suggest to make the chances that the AI would back down on some point very likely so if someone wants so play Finland he has the option for that but if you play Germany or the US you don’t have to fight a World War at that point if you don't want to.

 

[Samilou]

If such an Event series becomes part of the Mod I would suggest to make the chances that the AI would back down on some point very likely so if someone wants so play Finland he has the option for that but if you play Germany or the US you don’t have to fight a World War at that point if you don't want to.

That's about what I was thinking of. I say a 20 percent chance of success would be fine (so the human doesn't have to reload a hundred times if he really wants it to succeed).

Reagrding the German blockade I don't see why the USA couldn't simply outmatch them with their own navy. 20 CTF's will certainly force the German navy to scatter, while Germany this early ingame really shouldn't have more than a handful of smaller ones. I guess a German adventure in Cuba is not overly fantastical as well.

 

[J-S]

Reagrding the German blockade I don't see why the USA couldn't simply outmatch them with their own navy. 20 CTF's will certainly force the German navy to scatter, while Germany this early ingame really shouldn't have more than a handful of smaller ones. I guess a German adeventure in Cuba is not overly fantastical as well.

Sure the US navy would probably be much stronger depending on what point in the game you want to set this event but the moment the US navy comes in reach of the Land based German air force (in the Fatherland scenario the Luftwaffe wasn't destroyed in the Battle of Britain) that doesn't matters so much anymore and anyway the moment US and German Forces shooting at each other its WW3. Like in the Cuban Missile Crisis it would be necessary that some one backs down before they shoot it out.

 

[J-S]

And for a democratic country like the US it should be difficult to start such a War without itself being threatened remember real history the US haven't done anything when Soviet tanks crushed the Uprising 1953 in East Germany, 1956 in Hungary or the Prague Spring in 1968.

 

[Samilou]

And for a democratic country like the US it should be difficult to start such a War without itself being threatened remember real history the US haven't done anything when Soviet tanks crushed the Uprising 1953 in East Germany, 1956 in Hungary or the Prague Spring in 1968.

I have a solution: Make Germany adventure in Cuba before USA starts to get involved in Sweden and Finland. There should be the options for USA to either directly threaten Germany with an invasion of Cuba or that USA simply approaches Sweden and/or Finland (lower chance for Finland due to strategic position, recent history and relations to Germany).

 

[unmerged(96802)]

after the war wouldn't it be likely that germany would start a massive naval building program? it's navy is far behind the USA, so wouldn't they try to compete with that in some sort of way?

 

[unmerged(62478)]

I have a solution: Make Germany adventure in Cuba before USA starts to get involved in Sweden and Finland. There should be the options for USA to either directly threaten Germany with an invasion of Cuba or that USA simply approaches Sweden and/or Finland (lower chance for Finland due to strategic position, recent history and relations to Germany).

Why should that even happen ? Those nations are subjects of Germany. If they would try something funny, it would be the same as the Prague uprising. And Cuba is anti German since the Germans were sinking some of their exports during the war.

 

[Samilou]

Why should that even happen ? Those nations are subjects of Germany. If they would try something funny, it would be the same as the Prague uprising. And Cuba is anti German since the Germans were sinking some of their exports during the war.

No they aren't subjects and it would be something completely else than the Pargue uprising as they'd be facing determined, organized, experienced and well equipped armies of almost a million men if fully mobilised, plus weather, logistics and terrain issues... Cuba can always change, as the Germans could fund a coup or simply persuade the Cuban leader to join them anyhow.


That massive naval building program would indeed happen soon, but it would take years for Germany to develop and build a meaningful number of competitive aircraft carriers (Graf Zeppelin) is a bit old and possibly a failed design, as well as small).

 

[Skarion]

Doubt that the handling would be like the Prague uprising, especially as they have to use boats to handle it, a lot of more space to occupy and at least Sweden will possible be armed with nukes.

If such an Event series becomes part of the Mod I would suggest to make the chances that the AI would back down on some point very likely so if someone wants so play Finland he has the option for that but if you play Germany or the US you don’t have to fight a World War at that point if you don't want to.

Sure.

I agree with you, I just argued about that the details you argued on were the wrong things to argue with.

 

[unmerged(62478)]

You are overestimating the capabilities of Sweden and Finland (Maybe i would think different if you were not from the area). Just accept that not all the nations have an influence on the world stage (There has been allready too much talk about Leningrad) and lets concentrate on the important countries. Even if scandinavia is united as a nation they are still no match for Germany.

 

[J-S]

No they aren't subjects and it would be something completely else than the Pargue uprising as they'd be facing determined, organized, experienced and well equipped armies of almost a million men if fully mobilised, plus weather, logistics and terrain issues...

Doubt that the handling would be like the Prague uprising, especially as they have to use boats to handle it, a lot of more space to occupy and at least

I wouldn't argue for Sweden that point and I wouldn't call Finland a German Subject, too. But in the case of Finland it is a German ally falling out of line you could argue there that it is very similar to the Soviets bringing Hungary or Czechoslovakia back in the Warsaw Pact.

And I seriously doubt that Germany would give them the time to mobilise fully or in the unlikely case Germany would probably take that time to mobilize itself so they defeat them either way.

Sweden will possible be armed with nukes.

I really don't think they would have any Nukes in the early '50s the source you showed us said that they didn't had operating Nukes in the '70s and that the weapons-grade plutonium they used was imported from France and Britain do you think a Fascist Britain or Vichy France would sold Sweden in the Fatherland scenario that plutonium?

Cuba can always change, as the Germans could fund a coup or simply persuade the Cuban leader to join them anyhow.

Cuba becoming a German ally I don't see and they have no real connection to Germany or Fascism it would be like the whole Sweden/Finland story highly unlikely that Cuba would try such a risky game with so little to gain.

Just an idea maybe instate of Cuba one of the former British Islands in that area could stay British (would be of course kind of a stretch) that would give Germany the base near the US to station Nuclear weapons and the bargaining chip for keeping Sweden/Finland Nuke free.

I agree with you, I just argued about that the details you argued on were the wrong things to argue with.

I am very happy that you once agree with me
But don't misunderstand me not repeating my arguments permanently as accepting yours as perfectly right just that even if I take most of what you say as you say it the outcome would still be nearly the same.

 

[jamhaw]

I'd say the US would do this only in order to gain a brick of negotiation and forcing the Germans to not attack Finland or/and Sweden. The Nukes would of course be placed in places that are easily defended, or hard to access for the Germans, such as Swedish Lappland. Events about the Americans aiding the Swedes in completing the "Göta Kanal" so that they have a passage replacing Öresund, and can send warships and merchant ships to the Baltic. It would take at least several months (it could even turn into a mini-version of Barbarossa) for the Germans in "Fatherland" to completely occupy Finland and Sweden, considering all the gearing for war the Swedes have done and the great gains of military equipment, manpower and war experience for Finland. The terrain, weather and strong militaries of Finland and Sweden is just as much of a hinder as the sea, although the Americans will have to place the warheads away from the coasts and easily conquered territories.

Anyhow the American nuclear deterrent may be enough for the Germans to back down and agree to a compromise, just like the Soviets in the Cuba crisis.

No. That is like the American deciding to allow the Soviets to have hundreds of nuclear warheads in Cuba. To allow the enemy to hit your heartland while you can do anything about it is idiocy.