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Prof. Wubba

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Hello,

Running HIP with the Cultural Melting Pots submod from the workshop, which I checked and shouldn't affect this at all. I'm in a game at the moment with a friend in multiplayer and we've both had this issue. I've done another game where this has not happened. So my character with no congenital traits has had three children, all who ended up as week, and one is also short. My friend's character has had two children, both week and short and the other is this poor abomination.
BmBHk1A.jpg


What the hell is going on? 5/5 Children are weak, 3/5 children are small between two unrelated dynasties born of parents with no congenital traits that did the pregnancy events to give bonus health. Is this save game corrupted or something? My friend also told me he seemed to have 4k levies disappear when he raised them. Any help would be appreciated.
 

Astephos

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No idea what's going on. I Started a game with a custom character, didn't give him over the top stats or give him anything congenital, yet the game starts and he's short... Must be something they added to randomize how games are played, something like mutations maybe? I've seen it a lot where starting as a random character like a count in Poland you'll be short or delicate
 

G.Strategos

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Yeah, I have seen the same issues plenty of times tbh. It must be something about randomizing the positive traits, I guess.
 

Midnight Voyage

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That's just kinda how the genetics mod they rolled in works. I was experimenting with the genetics mod alone and the first generation was full of insane combinations of genetic traits. I looked at all the children in the whole kingdom and a solid majority of them had at least one genetic trait, up to three, in random combinations that made especially little sense if I looked at their totally normal parents. My favorite was two normal parents producing a strong, quick daughter and a weak, ugly, idiot daughter. I did charinfo and neither was a bastard.
 

tombom

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It's the genetics trait mod, it simulates something like dominant/recessive genes through character flags and at start all characters are assigned random ones is my understanding. So your starting character was given the "weak" gene.

I'm not 100% convinced on it but it mostly just works out as extra randomness.
 
Last edited:

Austregisel

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I have not seen this in mine.
 

zijistark

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Never seen it. Have played it, have observed it w/ savegame trait distribution analysis, have implemented it.

Law of large numbers implies that some people will, on some campaigns, run into terrible luck, and the nature of genetics will tend to compound terrible luck. [Well, I guess it's not THAT terrible in an evolutionary sense if they're going on to have children compounding these traits that reduce various skill levels by 1 at worst.]

Though, regarding the OP, note that Ruler-Designed characters have issues due to CK2 limitations. Some have been addressed in alpha, as have other things (though there is no bug with the way genes are mixed or anything like that). Also, note that the start of the game is always rocky on genetic coherency (though of course no worse than vanilla unless having more traits -- good and bad -- is fundamentally worse or something), because we obviously have no genetic history of the vast majority of startup characters -- at most we have a positive genetic trait or two on some hero character, but the genetics game-wide always converge to stable and very reasonable norms once 2-3 generations of the actual genetic simulation have passed.
 

tahlaskerssen

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I know this isn't the main objective of the thread, but I wanna take the opportunity to speak of something.

The new genetics system checks for characters that are created randomly and assign them genetic traits. I think they add too much genetic traits. Make it a maximum of 1 trait or just remove that entirely.
 

Eicna

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If you're very unlucky and marry someone who must have some sort of plastic surgery or intelligence enhancement because despite she appear genius and fair but her genetic tag is aabbcc for everything then your descendants are doomed.
It takes generations to wash out the bad genetics.
 

G.Strategos

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tahlaskerssen

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If you're very unlucky and marry someone who must have some sort of plastic surgery or intelligence enhancement because despite she appear genius and fair but her genetic tag is aabbcc for everything then your descendants are doomed.
It takes generations to wash out the bad genetics.

Well, that simulates reality..

Also, a bad gene in the family doesn't mean it will necessarily 100% being inherited. And the more time it passes without you marriying someone who has it, less chances to to be passed on to your childs.

I know people don't like bad traits on their sons, but just look at the world. Bald, fat, skinny, weak, tall, black, white, blue eye, green eye...people. They are all over the place because that's how genes work. HIP is more into simmulation and immersion than gameplay.

Nevertheless, some bad traits shouldn't be genetic inheritable through long generations, like stutter and clubfooted.
 
Last edited:

Stanislav I

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Never seen it. Have played it, have observed it w/ savegame trait distribution analysis, have implemented it.

Law of large numbers implies that some people will, on some campaigns, run into terrible luck, and the nature of genetics will tend to compound terrible luck.

I have started some 20 new campaigns today as various Viking sea kings in Britain. I played on only the starts giving me a character with no bad congenital traits. I never married anyone with any bad traits. And 18 times out of 20, I got a firstborn who was either short, or tiny, or ugly, or weak, or dim, sometimes a combination of two bad traits (please mind no pregnancy events were involved!). Once I even got a kid who was quick and dim at the same time! This is not terrible luck, my friend.

The congenital traits system used to be bugged, and I have posted on it before. But now it’s just a pure mess breaking the game completely.

If you could look into it, it would be most appreciated!
 

Prof. Wubba

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I just looked through the list of all children born. 75% plus have significant congenital traits. Really strange when most people in real life are more or less normal. Especially seeing 50% of the population with strong or weak. Second Generation is seems to have just gotten worse, now close to 90% have it.
 

Crimson9

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I just looked through the list of all children born. 75% plus have significant congenital traits. Really strange when most people in real life are more or less normal. Especially seeing 50% of the population with strong or weak. Second Generation is seems to have just gotten worse, now close to 90% have it.

First of all, the minor traits are not significant. They are significant because YOU consider them significant. But in objective terms, they aren't significant. They have an utterly minor effect and are meant for user feedback and immersion.

"Especially seeing 50% of the population with strong or weak. Second Generation is seems to have just gotten worse, now close to 90% have it."

Idk why people do this. I know thats not true. YOU KNOW its not true. So whats the point?

Extensive testing showed that the actual significant traits are a little rarer than vanilla.

Also,

"Most people in the world are normal"

Thats just not true. How many people are not a little bit shorter or taller, uglier or more attractive, stronger or weaker, less or more intelligent, than average?


Anyway, I will be solutions focused instead of whining focused and provide the following suggestion:

We should make it so that the player character's genetics are not randomized, but instead are all normal (unless they already have a trait like strong etc, in which case their genes in that trait group will reflect that.) This should reduce randomness in the initial generation, where I think most of the issues with people here are arising.

I think Ziji can also add in an option to hide the new traits (or you could do it yourself!), since people have so much issue with extremely minor traits.​
 
Last edited:

Midnight Voyage

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I think it's pretty unnecessary to be rude about people disagreeing with how your mod works.

I'll add that I have similar experiences with the genetics system. The traits are very much everywhere every time I try to use it. Other people seem to have similar experiences. It's weird to see people getting mad and saying the things I experienced did not happen.

Oh, and I don't think normalizing genes will work, because as I said, I see traits express all over the place. Normalizing genes for your starter character does very little. And the game constantly generates new NPCs for a variety of reasons, so saying that it will even out after several generations (which is less than ideal, who wants to play generations of a game just so a mod will start working properly?) isn't exactly accurate either. There will always be new NPCs and you have no idea what their kids will do. It will always seem like traits come out of absolutely nowhere.
 
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Crimson9

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I think its fine to criticize. But saying unrealistic stuff makes it far more difficult for HIP modders to know whats an actual problem and what isnt. Its not my mod anymore anyway, its being managed by the HIP team. Provide them with proper criticism and they can fix the problem. Saying 50% of the population is strong or weak is just not realistic. On my non-HIP mod, several tests showed strong and weak to be ~5% of the population. Around the same as vanilla. On multiple save games. From various people. So unless something is really wrong with how HIP modders implemented the mod, I dont think that criticism is remotely honest. And considering these are the best modders on the CK2 community, I really doubt they would have made a mistake like that. I just think it is exaggeration for the sake of attacking the mod, and that is what I consider rude.

The way the games vanilla gene system works, you usually have a 15% chance to inherit a trait. If you dont it goes away. And then how does it come back? Randomly.

I don't think there is much more randomness in the vanilla traits (like strong etc.) The new traits could be considered more random though, which is why an option to hide those traits would solve the problem.
 

Midnight Voyage

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There's still no need to be rude about it, saying people are "bullshitting" and "whining." Negative feedback is not rudeness unless it's a personal attack. (IE: this sucks, this is an ignorant opinion) Dismissing it out of hand is. And while any modder, no matter how good, can make a mistake, feedback isn't necessarily about mistakes. It can be on things that people would like to be tweaked or that reduce their enjoyment of a mod. All of what you're saying is your own feedback, it's based on your experiences and what you feel. You are dismissing the feelings and experience of others. Almost nobody wants to just attack a mod just to do it, they want to enjoy the mod and are giving feedback based on their enjoyment. You feel attacked by it because you made that feature of it. That's natural. But people are probably annoyed that you are attacking them for their experience and calling it a lie.

And I think you're having a disconnect here, you're not understanding the people who have problems. All the extra traits make it seem extremely crowded, and you're even calling them insignificant. When people say most people seem to be strong or weak, you surely should recognize that they mean the full range of strong-weak traits, not just the most powerful ones. You say they do not matter, but to all of the people giving feedback, they appear to matter, especially since they are seeing them absolutely everywhere! And yes, fully average people have a bit of variance to them, but I'm one of the people who doesn't understand why it is necessary to simulate this in genetic traits. The game already makes people have variance in their stats via education, normal traits, or stats of their parents. Is it really necessary to eugenics it down to the microstat? Is it worth having them in the game when all they do is tweak numbers in ways you call insignificant? You say they are for immersion or flavor, but they are clearly breaking some people's immersion, and hiding them takes out their utility as flavor.

Genetic traits in the game are normally just outliers. They are inherently of significance. Changing the entire purpose of genetic traits is why you've got such a response. You are making them insignificant, and it has caused a big disconnect in the people who do not like the changes. Why do they need a trait signifying that someone is a few inches shorter than average? Why would that really matter to their stats if it's not significant? I wasn't even against the concept of them myself until I saw how many people had them and in what combinations.

While I'm at it, the first generation of the -entire world- seems excessively random to me every time I play. Two perfectly normal generated people in my latest shot produced an ugly, weak, short child and also a bright child. When you look at that result, it seems completely out of nowhere, doesn't it? And the game constantly generates new people. This will always leave an element of confusing randomness in the inheritance of traits, and that feels at odds with the intended purpose of the genetics mod, to make the system of genetics make sense. This isn't attacking the mod, it is a problem that I think it would be nice if it was addressed or fixed in some way. And nobody wants to have to play a game for multiple generations just in the hopes that the trait distribution will eventually start making more sense.

And your point about clubfooted: You know, some of that is from an added event in the new pregnancy events. I put together a mod myself to cut down the frequency drastically. It's somewhat separate from the whole genetics system, and cutting down on extra negative traits from that event does significant good to the whole state of clubfoot and harelip people in the world. It's not an inherent part of the previous genetics system and can be changed separately by tweaking one event.

Finally: HIP already has many optional features and modules. It's not rude or even unexpected for people to request the ability to not use one that impacts their enjoyment of the game. If it's too much work to separate out, they can say that and it's perfectly understandable. But I've seen people being really rude about that, too.

anyway, I've already typed too much about it, I just don't like seeing all these people having a problem that I shared shut down like that and nobody else seemed to want to put the words in.
 

Crimson9

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Exaggerations are not feedback. You will note that I did not attack any fair criticisms, but addressed them.

If you are going to give completely unfair and unrealistic remarks and pretend that's feedback, I'll call that out. There is simply no way that 50% of the population are strong or weak, or (from another thread) 25% have clubfoot.

"All the extra traits make it seem extremely crowded, and you're even calling them insignificant."

Insignificant as in they dont change your character. They do help immersion and give feedback. Your two quick parents shouldn't always have a quick or genius child, but it should still be a good chance that they are bright. Not that if I have two geniuses I end up with several children who are neither genius nor quick or even bright. Not that I end up with a slow character from two smart parents. For me, that is immersion breaking, not that I end up getting a delicate character from two normal parents because... yes, that happens all the time. But nevertheless, I did address the problem by suggesting an option to hide the extra traits.

"and hiding them takes out their utility as flavor."

Thats the choice that they will make. I won't hide them. I find them useful and immersive. But yes, the stats increase or decrease is very slight and would likely not matter to anyone who does not play this game for minmaxing. And I don't think that is what HIP is about.

Now as for the more impactful traits, I fail to see how a 1 or 2% COMPLETELY RANDOM system is better than a partially random one. And yes, randomness peaks in the first generation of children and then immediately goes to very near its lowest amount (not after several generations) which I think is far less random than vanilla. But of course, we can find exceptions and I think that is the one you provided me. Do you know how many times in vanilla I got a weak child from nowhere? I mean its one in fifty or a hundred chance. Not only that, but I've gotten weak children from strong parents. Slow from Geniuses. Which is completely absurd and rarely happens in HIP now.
 
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Midnight Voyage

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It isn't even minmaxing. It feels pointless, cluttery, random, and only detracts from my experience. Your experience was different, but this was mine. I don't care if my children are perfect or not, but I do care when the offspring of everyone seems to be even more random than vanilla. Again, this was my experience across several games in which I started from a bookmark and just went through all of the children born to see how many of them had congenital traits. You can insist that my experience didn't happen or that the traits don't matter unless they are outliers, but it is what I am making my decisions by.

I did try to point out that when people tell you how many people are "strong or weak", they do not mean the exact trait by that title, they mean the range of traits. They are not ignoring those traits that you are ignoring. They feel like congenital traits should not be that frequent, and that is their opinion. And I tried to tell you that clubfoot thing in particular is unrelated to the entire genetics system. Does HIP change the event that adds harelipped, clubfooted, and ugly based on fulfilling your wife's cravings? I didn't see a change to that event listed, and it can cause outliers. That's probably what the people complaining about clubbed feet noticed.

We'll have to agree to disagree on your decisions of which are fair criticisms and if you did or didn't address them. You are dismissing most of mine, after all. I pretty thoroughly disagree with all your points, and I do not at all like the result of the system. I guess that HIP isn't to my taste anymore if this is here to stay and they won't be tweaking it or accepting feedback on it.