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Karlingid

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So, the Alans...

This is a topic of much debate. Not often brought up, but subject to much dissent and disagreement with their current portrayal when it is. The Alans are the remnants of the Scytho-Sarmatian steppe nomads, a group of East Iranian peoples most closely related to modern Pashtuns, who live on today as a settled people known as the Ossetians. The Alans were always a point of interest, as they were, more or less, portrayed as Tengri Russians, with access to Russian graphics and music, Byzantine cultural decisions and music, and with Horse Lords, they had the benefit of being non-Altaic nomads. Other than the Magyars, they are the only ones.

The general agreement on the forums is that the Alans need to be more Iranian. Some have suggested using the Persian portraits and units. The units are very fitting, as the horse archer especially resembles a Scythian fighter. Portraits would certainly make sense, as the Persian portraits do indeed capture the look of Ossetians, although not, perhaps, the excessive fur they also wore. Some have said to put them in the Iranian culture group. Some have said to make a whole new religion just for them.

Me? I like to think portraits, units, and Zunism are all they need. Zunism is representative of Iranian paganism in Crusader Kings 2, lying vaguely on the verge of Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, possessing features of both in truth, just as Iranian paganism would. The sun-worship was still sensible for a steppe people, the majority of which historically loved the sky. My only concern was that Sky Burial, something that the Alans most certainly would've done (as not everyone can have a Kurgan) would be lost. I thus proposed that Zunists should be able to do sky burial if they are a nomad, as both Dharmic and Mazdan nomads can do so, and Zunism lies between.

I have noticed something rather peculiar in my most recent game, though:

99982B8EADB47170DC0EC95A293A820B8368B822


You see that right. There is now a Zoroastrian prince among the Alan nobility. Is this Paradox subtlely addressing concerns over Scytho-Sarmatian paganism, and the nature of the Alan religion?

This is why we all love Paradox. They put so much effort and passion into their projects, delivering great products again and again, and, as seen here, they likewise listen to the community and respond. Whether they tell us or not, whether they make it explicit or not, Paradox really does care about the fanbase, and this tiny detail here really makes my day.

I suppose this means I should play as Zoroastrians instead of Zunists from now on?
 
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starwarsfan541

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There is more than enough info on Ossetian paganism to make them a faith

Zunism doesn't make sense considering it's a syncretism of persian and Indian religion from the what I can tell
 

Noxatrox

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Check the 867 start date, they made some major changes to the Alans.

First of all, the Alans are no longer nomads; they have settled as tribals. While the duke of Alania is Orthodox, his vassals are all different religions. One count is Zoroastrian religion, and is meant to show how some Alans kept the belief of their ancestors (I guess the developers felt that Zoroastrianism better represented Iranian paganism than Zunbils). Another is Tengri, Alans who fully adapted the nomadic lifestyle. Finally, one count is even Jewish. I guess this is supposed to represent the influence of the Jewish Khazars on the Alans (the duke of Alania is a tributary of the Khazars in 867).

I also think that the Alans should use the Persian portraits and models! I think that the Russian portraits were added before the Persian ones, and were a good fit at the time. Now though, it would make much more sense to use the Persian portraits.
 
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SBolshevik

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They're not representative of all Irannain paganism, just the Zunbils. It's kind of like replacing slavic and suomenusko with germanic because it's 'close enough'. I'd much rather see them make something up.
It's more like using Baltic paganism to represent Slavic paganism, something the game used to do anyways.
 

Damarrocarion

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There is however one thing with Zunism, that it loses quite a lot when it is religion of Nomads/Tribals as it gives bonus to HI and both those particular governments lack said troops, aside from "Raise tribal army" (Zunist cannot even use Call Devout Warriors). Likewise, tribal Zunist still cannot go feudal without doing the usual "convert, go feudal, reconvert" trick.

If there would be Sarmatian paganism, what would it features be (Aside from Sky Burial) and where would it's holy sites be? I would assume that like Zunism, it would need three "relatively easy" holy sites with last ones being in back-end of Persia like Zunism has Cairo as holy site.

EDIT:

If one wants full revamp with warrior women and stuff, I guess this could work but it would require altering both Culture & Religion rules. This would be "Zunnified" religion and more of an offensive one like Tengri.

CULTURE

-Alan courtiers have no issues voting for "Status of women" law. I would assume it is also possible to make Nomad/Tribal realms agnatic-cognatic and give this ability to Alan culture.

- Alans would receive Altaic tribal buildings in Steppe terrain (= Stables, Steppe Barracks)

- "Raise tribal army" decision would give more Light Cavalry as with Altaic/Tengri rulers

- Add Persian portraits. If possible, clothing could be mixture of Cuman/Russian for variety, especially in terms of headgear.

RELIGION

- Sky Burial (All governments)
- Women may always be priestess/spymaster
- Levy size in right religion provinces: +10%*
- Light cavalry offensive/defensive: +20%
- Raiding
- Ability to intermarry with Mazdans
- Great Feast/Hunt always available
- Concubines
- Few events relating to animal sacrifice for Theology focus (Conclave)
- Tribal rulers could also get "Tribal invasion" once per lifetime.

Holy sites: I would assume k_alania should have (Alania & Azov). Third could be the Tengri site in Sur Darya, fourth in c_balkh (Proto Zoroastrianism) and final site could be shared site with Zunist in d_zabulistan.

On reformation, Holy Order would be similiar to Tengri.

*Reason for only +10 is because even when unreformed, it would be quite easy to spread to non-pagan reformed lands and get a fairly hideously big army going. For example, the same bonus it with reformed Zun (but bigger) and once you get reformation going, you soon get a fairly big juggernaut to play around with.
 
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CrackdToothGrin

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The general agreement on the forums is that the Alans need to be more Iranian. Some have suggested using the Persian portraits and units. The units are very fitting, as the horse archer especially resembles a Scythian fighter. Portraits would certainly make sense, as the Persian portraits do indeed capture the look of Ossetians, although not, perhaps, the excessive fur they also wore.

Persian portraits are probably the best out of what's available, although I would also probably recommend modification to the eyebrow structure to capture the 'hooked' look of the East Anatolian to the Cascasus/Volga appearance, and maybe a slight tone modification to make them a tiny bit lighter.

Clothing, though? Probably best handled by a mix of the Byzantine, Cuman, and Turkish clothing sets. They wore a lot of center-fastened kaftans, large-collared shirts, etc. The kaftans themselves had some interesting shapes, with overlapping fronts and occasionally even going left-over-right, which is not usually a trait you see in steppe clothing outside of Mongolia.

The hats would need to be created from scratch, though. They wore strange paneled coifs.
 

Karlingid

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Persian portraits are probably the best out of what's available, although I would also probably recommend modification to the eyebrow structure to capture the 'hooked' look of the East Anatolian to the Cascasus/Volga appearance, and maybe a slight tone modification to make them a tiny bit lighter.

Clothing, though? Probably best handled by a mix of the Byzantine, Cuman, and Turkish clothing sets. They wore a lot of center-fastened kaftans, large-collared shirts, etc. The kaftans themselves had some interesting shapes, with overlapping fronts and occasionally even going left-over-right, which is not usually a trait you see in steppe clothing outside of Mongolia.

The hats would need to be created from scratch, though. They wore strange paneled coifs.

Our resident expert speaks!

There is however one thing with Zunism, that it loses quite a lot when it is religion of Nomads/Tribals as it gives bonus to HI and both those particular governments lack said troops, aside from "Raise tribal army" (Zunist cannot even use Call Devout Warriors). Likewise, tribal Zunist still cannot go feudal without doing the usual "convert, go feudal, reconvert" trick.

If there would be Sarmatian paganism, what would it features be (Aside from Sky Burial) and where would it's holy sites be? I would assume that like Zunism, it would need three "relatively easy" holy sites with last ones being in back-end of Persia like Zunism has Cairo as holy site.

EDIT:

If one wants full revamp with warrior women and stuff, I guess this could work but it would require altering both Culture & Religion rules. This would be "Zunnified" religion and more of an offensive one like Tengri.

CULTURE

-Alan courtiers have no issues voting for "Status of women" law. I would assume it is also possible to make Nomad/Tribal realms agnatic-cognatic and give this ability to Alan culture.

- Alans would receive Altaic tribal buildings in Steppe terrain (= Stables, Steppe Barracks)

- "Raise tribal army" decision would give more Light Cavalry as with Altaic/Tengri rulers

- Add Persian portraits. If possible, clothing could be mixture of Cuman/Russian for variety, especially in terms of headgear.

RELIGION

- Sky Burial (All governments)
- Women may always be priestess/spymaster
- Levy size in right religion provinces: +10%*
- Light cavalry offensive/defensive: +20%
- Raiding
- Ability to intermarry with Mazdans
- Great Feast/Hunt always available
- Concubines
- Few events relating to animal sacrifice for Theology focus (Conclave)

Holy sites: I would assume k_alania should have (Alania & Azov). Third could be the Tengri site in Sur Darya, fourth in c_balkh (Proto Zoroastrianism) and final site could be shared site with Zunist in d_zabulistan.

On reformation, Holy Order would be similiar to Tengri.

*Reason for only +10 is because even when unreformed, it would be quite easy to spread to non-pagan reformed lands and get a fairly hideously big army going. For example, the same bonus it with reformed Zun (but bigger) and once you get reformation going, you soon get a fairly big juggernaut to play around with.

Well, like I said, it's not perfect. Preferably, they would indeed get their own.
They're not representative of all Irannain paganism, just the Zunbils. It's kind of like replacing slavic and suomenusko with germanic because it's 'close enough'. I'd much rather see them make something up.

Iranian paganism holds features of both Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, as these two religions respectively split off of Indo-Iranian paganism which groups like the Zunbils would, theoretically, be representing. As an East Iranian people closely related to the Alans, the folk paganism of the Pashtun would be reminiscent of Alanian mythology, although Zunism is heavily influenced by later Hindu influence and excursions whereas the Alans would be more leaning towards Zoroastrianism. East Iranian religion should not at all be compared to replacing Suomenusko with Germanic, as the two are not related as can be traced to the Paleolithic, whereas the Alans and Pashtun have a much thinner, relatively recent margin of diversion.

Is it perfect? No, but it's a much better representation of the Alans as a distinct entity than making them Tengri is.

It's more like using Baltic paganism to represent Slavic paganism, something the game used to do anyways.

That's sorta my point. It is as if people ignore not only the game's own logic, which frequently features substitutions and generalizations (The Assyrians would not be very much like Mashriqi Arabs, for instance), but also the idea that ultimately, not everything can receive the attention it deserves.

Proposals like this are minimal, not asking few new content, because Pdox might not have the free time to do so, or might have more important things they could add in instead. Ideally, there'd be new content. Maybe an Alan clothing pack, an Alan religion, possibly even Alan unit sprites, but that's a good bit to ask when they could smash together pre-existing assets instead.
 
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