By the theatre commander's skill level (by -1% per skill level, additive for a change instead of the usual multiplicative modification), assuming that the air group is in the hierarchy at all.
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<<Bullfrog
The issues raised in this thread and the inconsistencies with reality present in HoI shows the need for a system redesign.
By no means should massive groups of 400-600 craft "air fleets" be the norm for air missions. Effective coverage of airspace requires many small unit sorties, reserves and a huge spread of forces.
Granted, this lumping of air units makes gameplay easy, but it seems wrong to me. >>
I think it is the nature of air units in most wargames. You want the range, type and tech level to matter so you treat air units just like land units that move fast, but can't take land, and can drop bombs (in support of ground or naval action) or fight other aircraft.
As for me a more realistic assessment of and airforce would be based around an airfield, with the range of the aircraft being set as a radius of operations, from which fighters defend the skies, bombers and CAS attack targets of oppurtunnity, nav units look for enemy vessels to bomb (etc). One of the harder things (attacking an opponents airfield) to model should result in significant losses to air units based in that airfield. The size of an airfield indicates the number planes that can be based from that airfield. The leaders could be attached to an airwing commnader unit (similarto an HQ unit) where you could assign/reassign a certain number of planes.
Aircraft production could be based on type (producing 10 planes-that go directly to airfields until at the airfields are at max capacity or the designated number of planes.-older planes can either be mothballed, donated to an ally, or scrapped (to free up the materials used).
Pilots should be drawn from a pilot pool (sepearate from the officer pool).
I'd up the attack factor quite a bit against exposed troops and ships, but make planes more vulnerable to ground fire. I also think the weather and night modifier's need to be more severe (to the point of making anything but strategic bombing pointless).
The issues raised in this thread and the inconsistencies with reality present in HoI shows the need for a system redesign.
By no means should massive groups of 400-600 craft "air fleets" be the norm for air missions. Effective coverage of airspace requires many small unit sorties, reserves and a huge spread of forces.
Granted, this lumping of air units makes gameplay easy, but it seems wrong to me. >>
I think it is the nature of air units in most wargames. You want the range, type and tech level to matter so you treat air units just like land units that move fast, but can't take land, and can drop bombs (in support of ground or naval action) or fight other aircraft.
As for me a more realistic assessment of and airforce would be based around an airfield, with the range of the aircraft being set as a radius of operations, from which fighters defend the skies, bombers and CAS attack targets of oppurtunnity, nav units look for enemy vessels to bomb (etc). One of the harder things (attacking an opponents airfield) to model should result in significant losses to air units based in that airfield. The size of an airfield indicates the number planes that can be based from that airfield. The leaders could be attached to an airwing commnader unit (similarto an HQ unit) where you could assign/reassign a certain number of planes.
Aircraft production could be based on type (producing 10 planes-that go directly to airfields until at the airfields are at max capacity or the designated number of planes.-older planes can either be mothballed, donated to an ally, or scrapped (to free up the materials used).
Pilots should be drawn from a pilot pool (sepearate from the officer pool).
I'd up the attack factor quite a bit against exposed troops and ships, but make planes more vulnerable to ground fire. I also think the weather and night modifier's need to be more severe (to the point of making anything but strategic bombing pointless).
This is a quote from the Wiki which I do not agree with!
I agree with you, but I put a large quote from the Wiki in my post, however I would like to point out that gaining better bigger bonuses improves the effectiveness of your air stacks. Just not enough to really change the optimal number.
In a number of games that I've played recently and keeping an eye on trying to work out and get the best optimal air stack, I find that each extra unit reduces the sum/total efficiency of the air stack by about 15%. One would think 10% since it is a 10% penalty. You have to understand that it is applied in a certain way, have a look in the Air Stack Penalty Wiki for how it works. All the same, as I have posted earlier in this thread I find 3 to be most effective, 4 not too bad an option IMHO, but 5 not really worthwild even though it is a slight increase.
To give you some numbers IIRC I had INTs at 14 AA So with:
1 at 204% was 28.56 = 28.56
2 at 184% was 25.872=51.744
3 at 167% was 22.638=67.914
4 at 13857% was 19.4=77.616
5 at 115% was 19.17 = 80.85
So you can see that going from going from 4 to 5 nets 3.234 AA points gained divided by 77.616 equals a 4.1666% increase in effectiveness. This is with bonuses of +30% experience, 10% Mission efficiency, 20% interdiction, 10% base proximity, 10% radio and 3 or 4 skilled Leader at either 15% or 20%. (The last is applied after the stacking penalty is applied to the efficiency.) Bear in mind that the 20% Interception bonus is not used for determining the Defensiveness efficience, so that also needs to be taken into account.
I agree with you, but I put a large quote from the Wiki in my post, however I would like to point out that gaining better bigger bonuses improves the effectiveness of your air stacks. Just not enough to really change the optimal number.
In a number of games that I've played recently and keeping an eye on trying to work out and get the best optimal air stack, I find that each extra unit reduces the sum/total efficiency of the air stack by about 15%. One would think 10% since it is a 10% penalty. You have to understand that it is applied in a certain way, have a look in the Air Stack Penalty Wiki for how it works. All the same, as I have posted earlier in this thread I find 3 to be most effective, 4 not too bad an option IMHO, but 5 not really worthwild even though it is a slight increase.
To give you some numbers IIRC I had INTs at 14 AA So with:
1 at 204% was 28.56 = 28.56
2 at 184% was 25.872=51.744
3 at 167% was 22.638=67.914
4 at 13857% was 19.4=77.616
5 at 115% was 19.17 = 80.85
So you can see that going from going from 4 to 5 nets 3.234 AA points gained divided by 77.616 equals a 4.1666% increase in effectiveness. This is with bonuses of +30% experience, 10% Mission efficiency, 20% interdiction, 10% base proximity, 10% radio and 3 or 4 skilled Leader at either 15% or 20%. (The last is applied after the stacking penalty is applied to the efficiency.) Bear in mind that the 20% Interception bonus is not used for determining the Defensiveness efficience, so that also needs to be taken into account.
No the way it works is 1.3 x 1.2 = 1.56 x 1.1 = 1.716 x 1.1 = 1.8876, rounded down to 1.887 by the stacking penalty percentage = #.## now multiply by Leadership skill value equals final amount of efficiency.
So lets say its 4 INTs with a 3 skill Leader, result = 1.32132 rounded to 1.321 times 1.15 equals 1.519
Lets say its with 15% mission efficiency and a 4 skill Leader = 1.518 (Don't forget about the rounding down to the third decimal place!)
Nothing to notice, but something to understand.
EDIT: With bombers;
1.3 x 1.2 x 1.1 x 0.6 x 1.15= 1.18404 or 118.40% (3 skilled Leader)
1.3 x 1.2 x 1.1 x 0.6 x 1.2 = 1.23552 or 123.50% (4 skilled Leader)
1.3 x 1.2 x 1.1 x 0.6 x 1.25 = 1.287 or 128.70% (5 skilled Leader)
now change the mission efficiency using 4 skilled Leader as base:
1.3x 1.15 x 1.1 x 0.6 x 1.2 = 1.18404 or 118.40% (same as 3 skilled Leader drop)
1.3 x 1.25 x 1.1 x 0.6 x 1.2= 1.287 (same as 5 skilled Leader increase)
Hmmm, I think it might have just been a rounding issue that I was seeing that might account for any variance, also while playing I'll be changing unit sizes and Leaders and missions between battles in which the units have gained experience and slightly changed the modifier that way, plus it is different for each air unit if they have performed more missions and have different experiences between them. I apologise for my confusion.
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I think PI has done a very good job at steering the dynamics towards air fleets of 300 (400 for me) as most efficient effectively, large fleets of 500-600 isn't the objective, they ought to be avoided.
Interesting idea on a pilot pool but I imagine the Officer pool as covering that.
Except for the fact that aircraft need no officers in vanilla. And even if you add them in via modding, they won't die when the planes go down, you will get them back to the pool. (I mean the non-pictured officers from the Officer Ratio. There's a variable in defines.lua which effects how probable it is that officers die during battle, but I guess it only concerns Land combat. And even if not, then changing that would effect land combat much harder than aircraft...)
Well Slan, thanks for correcting me since I play vanilla, but I did say that I use my imagination. Please pardon me for how I think about it while I'm playing this game and I meant it very loosely, extravagantly!
Cheers.
Cheers.
Sorry for posting this question in this thread, but the forum won't let me start a new thread or search for a thread which might answer this question. I have installed HoI3 SFI 2.03b and having not played HoI3 previously, I am unable to select all my airwings (so that I can merge them). I follow the advice in the manual to select an airwing first then draw the select box, but it always comes up with land units. The answer is probably very simple, but after an hour and a half of messing about I am too tired to work it out. Thanks.
A balanced blockade, will force UK to build convoys. Spam air attacks to reach 250 (veteran bonus) and your doing a lot of damage preventing UK from getting stronger. I shred UK in 39'. Need a challenge!