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malize

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... for Naval Strikes, agreed. They are already too effective for Port Strikes.

Agreed on the second part, disagree on the first. NAV's should be good ASW, poor Naval & Port Strike (at least until you get radar-guided bombs, and then they should become "ok")

The superlative Naval & Port strike platform should be the CAG.

Quoting myself to save typing-

The HOI3 changes with the CAG's *are* inscrutable.

Of course I think the whole HOI franchise has seriously screwed the pooch with the NAV & CAG roles...they've got things setup far more fantastically than IRL.

NAV's should excel at ASW, Spotting, and Convoy Raiding; their Naval strike should be mid-range and their port strike & ground attack roles not so great. Examine the aircraft identified with a "NAV" in game and their RL roles and actions and you get the drift.

The LCAG (CVL CAG) would excel at ASW, Shore Bombardment/Ground Attack roles, & Convoy Raiding, mediocre at Spotting, and mediocre Naval Strike & Port Strike.

CAG's on the other hand should excel at Naval and Port strike, mid-range at Spotting, Shore Bombardment, & Convoy Raiding, and mediocre at ASW.

This has everything to do with role's, the role of the long range NAV's and the CVL LCAG's...the CVL's had limited space and carried more ASW munition than anything else. And what is the historical rational for the uber-NAV aircraft? I can recall no substantial incidence or pattern during WW2 where what we class as "NAV" aircraft undertook the kinds of missions/roles with any success that they are utilized in HOI. Most of the "Port Strike" and "Naval Strike" type missions you can reference by multi-engined aircraft were not "NAV" types but "TAC" types (if not CAG's, which was the type which engaged in the Naval/Port attack role most often and with most success...the NAV's seldom employed torp capabilities against surface units and when they did carry bombs it was to level bomb, as they could not DB...in fact most of their munition carried was ASW related...or mines -- thus the Convoy Raiding bonus.)

Ideally NAV's should "fix" an enemy fleet via spotting, (i.e., create a positive positioning influence for your naval combat forces in the box, be they CAG, surface, or sub.) This is a role you can instantly understand in the graphical representation of "Midway" with the "Strawberry" flight...or in the Coastal Command's detection of the Bismark on the 26th May, 1941.

Some serious looking into the Doctrines and Technical improvements in the tech trees relating to these three groups (NAV, CAG, CV, CVL) is honestly in order to bring a situation into line.
 

unmerged(181758)

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For attack, you want to use as small stacks as you can get away with. No matter what stacking penalty is applied, your total attack is always largest for single planes going to different targets (since the penalty is applied at the target, not the starting point).

For defense, you want to put in as many planes against each target as you can, as long as it does not exceed the point of peak strength (if one exist). However, in reality the number of fighters you have at your disposal is probably comparable to the number of bombers your opponent has. Thus, the optimum would be to use stacks of similar size to those of the attacker in order to meet all the threats. :)

I agree with your second part about putting just as many fighters up defensively as needed, 3-4, since usually the AI uses stacks of 3s but sometimes 4s, although 3 is good to get away with most of the time even defending (Intercepting) against 4.

I disagree with sending as small as possible a formation against targets when bombing or on the attack as you put it. I want to do adequate damage and put the hurt in. I think to accomplish that the more aircraft squadrons you have is better against the targets you hit, suffer less damage in return by spreading the return flak fire and to have more shots against the targets. The problem is figuring out how high is reasonable to go in exchange for not being able create more groups with the same number of units. The limiting factor is caused by the cumulative air stacking penalty and how it diminishes the return on adding extra squadrons to Wings.

I do understand that single bombers will have the highest efficiency modification value applied to them, a 2 squadron Wing will have the second highest, a triangle the next, a square the next and so forth but I calculate that 3 are more effective in the combat system than 2 or 1. The percentage modifier doesn't make up for the lack of the total value of 3 squadrons, a 4th is still more than half the value of the extra squadron's value, but I am still weighing up if that is worthwild enough at least under early War or minor power circumstances.

NAV's should be good ASW, poor Naval & Port Strike (at least until you get radar-guided bombs, and then they should become "ok")

The superlative Naval & Port strike platform should be the CAG.

I agree, good self quoting.:)
 

pnt

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I disagree with sending as small as possible a formation against targets when bombing or on the attack as you put it. I want to do adequate damage and put the hurt in. I think to accomplish that the more aircraft squadrons you have is better against the targets you hit, suffer less damage in return by spreading the return flak fire and to have more shots against the targets. The problem is figuring out how high is reasonable to go in exchange for not being able create more groups with the same number of units. The limiting factor is caused by the cumulative air stacking penalty and how it diminishes the return on adding extra squadrons to Wings.

I do understand that single bombers will have the highest efficiency modification value applied to them, a 2 squadron Wing will have the second highest, a triangle the next, a square the next and so forth but I calculate that 3 are more effective in the combat system than 2 or 1. The percentage modifier doesn't make up for the lack of the total value of 3 squadrons, a 4th is still more than half the value of the extra squadron's value, but I am still weighing up if that is worthwild enough at least under early War or minor power circumstances.

Well, there are two separate issues here. I said that for bombing you will want to use as small stacks as you can get away with. The reasons for not making stacks small is indeed availability of targets and enemy action. The first is rarely a problem. If you only pick provinces with a lot of factories and little Flak (like Dusseldorf) you may end up short, but usually there is plenty to go around.

On the whole, though, the main factor is how many enemy fighters attack you. If you typically get jumped by 3 fighters, a single bomber will pretty much be a total loss. If you are attacked by 9 fighters with enormous stacking penalties, you are probably fine. Also, if the AI fails to reorganize the starting air units, which have fighters mixed with bombers. the defenses will be quite inefficient. You have to adapt to the enemy response.

However, the stacking penalties for aircraft are very large. With the old (current?) system, three single aircraft do as much damage as a stack of five if unopposed.
 

unmerged(181758)

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Well, there are two separate issues here. I said that for bombing you will want to use as small stacks as you can get away with. The reasons for not making stacks small is indeed availability of targets and enemy action. The first is rarely a problem. If you only pick provinces with a lot of factories and little Flak (like Dusseldorf) you may end up short, but usually there is plenty to go around.

On the whole, though, the main factor is how many enemy fighters attack you. If you typically get jumped by 3 fighters, a single bomber will pretty much be a total loss. If you are attacked by 9 fighters with enormous stacking penalties, you are probably fine. Also, if the AI fails to reorganize the starting air units, which have fighters mixed with bombers. the defenses will be quite inefficient. You have to adapt to the enemy response.

However, the stacking penalties for aircraft are very large. With the old (current?) system, three single aircraft do as much damage as a stack of five if unopposed.

OK fair enough then we are largely agreed then, perhaps I totally mistook your earlier emphasis, sorry about that. Oh I forgot about Strategic Bombing, I never do that so when I'm talking about air-to-ground attack I'm referring to Interdiction & Ground Attack bombing only, usually against targets that I want to do major damage to in very quick time. So I'm thinking of bombing attacks against Divisions, sometimes overstacks of Divisions not targets that single bombers can achieve anything much against while they de-organise too quickly themselves.
 

unmerged(33769)

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I am not sure what my grandfather, an pilot in WW2, would have thought of this. We are assuming that planes attack in mass and attack as a single unit. To be historical, we must understand that a large bomber strike consisted of several groups engaged in distinct missions. The great "firestorms" of the war were produced by several waves of aircraft, in which each group carried a different bomb load: some carried HE bombs intended to break up buildings and produce tinder, this was then ignited by a second wave carrying firebombs. A third wave would drop fragmentation bombs, with the purpose of puncturing fire hoses and killing or wounding firemen. The same raid might also include groups with special targets in the same general area: a rail yard or a munitions plant. There were also bombers containing delayed-fuse explosives, which hampered recovery work.

In my opinion, stacking penalties should apply only to individual groups, not to the total number of aircraft involved. The sky is a big place, and it can hold a lot of aircraft, but the number that can concentrate against a point target at one time is limited. Thus, if you lump 12 aircraft together in one group, you should face a serious stacking penalty (though well short of -120%). On the other hand, if you break them up into three groups under different commanders, the stacking penalty would be negligible.

Leadership penalties are a separate matter, but would apply, as they do now, to the highest ranking officer present, or to any officer who is commanding a group which is above his level. Officers who can competently supervise 12 units at a time should be quite scarce, those who can command 4-5 fairly common, but most could only be capable of managing 1 or 2 at a time.

This would mean reverting to some aspects of the HOI2 leadership rules, where promoting an officer to a higher level reduces his command skill. One thing I don't like about the present system is that you can swap Dwight Eisenhower with a divisional commander, with no penalty to either. That is highly unrealistic. Dwight might have made a good divisional commander, with some practice, though he had no experience leading troops in combat. But a random divisional commander would have had great difficulty filling the shoes of Dwight Eisenhower.
 

blue emu

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Thus, if you lump 12 aircraft together in one group, you should face a serious stacking penalty (though well short of -120%)...
Bear in mind that "12 planes" in-game represents hundreds of aircraft... the exact number is disputed.
 

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Kind of like everything else in HoI, the best you can do is guess. The "best" guess is that each wing/group/air division consists of 70-120 planes. Air Transports perhaps 400 with gliders...?
 

malize

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Kind of like everything else in HoI, the best you can do is guess. The "best" guess is that each wing/group/air division consists of 70-120 planes. Air Transports perhaps 400 with gliders...?

*shrugs* carriers get 2 CAGs...cve/l's get 1...it's about the only place in game where you can actually gauge the individual game unit produced from the factory to a RL platform that has a known rough range of capacity.

However I understand the overall issue of perception and game capability / RL inconsistencies of which you speak.
 

Cybvep

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Who cares? Gameplay effect and results are important. Aircraft work in a strange way in HOI games - they are too inflexible in HOI IMO and generally too "static". IRL they attacked in waves and it's hard to say what 12-wing attack really is in HOI3 and it what way it differs from 3 consecutive 4-wing attacks. Regardless of that, they weren't weapons of mass destruction, so "stacking penalties" are good for gameplay.
 

unmerged(181758)

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I was fortunate enough recently to have continuous multiple bombing and air superiority raids on one province, by 3 wings of 2 TACs (no more than 2 of these pairs at a time, they were targeting the division in the same province as the airfield) and one group of 3 INTs most of that time. First my fighter Wing was of 4 INTs with a 3 skilled Leader without trait.

Not much happened except that my weakest INT de-organised much more quickly than anything else, so much so that I had to separate it and rebase it off the airfield, to save it. So I now only had a 3 Wing of INTs facing as much as 7 enemy squadron, 3 of which were INTs on air superiority!:eek:

So time for reinforcements for that Wing and a better Leader, since some of the combat was at night and also in bad December weather, for a -20% penalty to both parties. So firstly I changed the 3 skilled, no trait Leader for a 4 skilled Night Flyer, second I moved another group into the base also of 3 INT because I had to remove another one from that group and I expected to have to take the next worse one out just like I did the night before. I think I left the 6 INT with their new Night Flying Leader for a 24-48 hour period or so, for some 6 against 4,5-7 action. Eventually I did remove the sixth INT squadron out to rest it as well, the efficiency improved under night conditions from 76% to 96% IIRC but once it changed to day and later after the -20% bad Weather mutual penalty disappeared the 5 INT Wing was operating at 150%+ and the enemy really started to suffer from attrition especially when only one of their groups of either 2 TACs or the 3 INTs were all they attacked with.

The damage was so fast that pretty soon, they started to drop squadrons out of the groups and then I really saw them suffer damage and losing strength and de-organise at an alarming rate! These were equal Tech units, Level 3 1938 era squadrons (fighting in December 1941! But hey) I watched one particular TAC drop from 62% strength to 12% and zero ORG in one battle (not one hour, I think over 4) it still hasn't flown again yet, I checked it and it is now still at 12% strong and 3.9% ORG! It does make me wonder if I had of still had that 6th INT squadron in my Wing if I could actually have eliminated that particular TAC, since the difference between 150%+ efficiency and 135%+/- is less than the extra squadron firing at that efficiency.

The figures I'm going by are based on Level 3 INT with Air Attack of 8.

8 x 5 INT squadrons at 150% equals 12 x 5 = 60 total attack points
8 x 6 INT squadrons at 135% equals 10.8 x 6 = 64.8 tatal attack points

So the extra 6th INT is worth over 2 hours of aerial combat more than an extra INT at base air attack value, while over 3 that's a gain of more than the modified value of a squadron from having 5.

In a fairly short time the enemy air units all got damaged into resting up for quite a while. So having more INTs where you need them or are lucky to have the enemy (AI) doggedly persist in raiding might be better than the always using the most efficient 3 squadron wing stack, having them just above parity with the enemy air raiding stacks for Weeks on end. Well its something to consider anyway.
 
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unmerged(181758)

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Hmmm, I've been thinking more about the Air Wing Stacking Penalty for fighters and bombers and trying to get my head around the whole Maths of working out and working with the penalty increase and its modification of efficiency and effectiveness and the major conclusion that this little puppy has reached is that this is WAD.

I've really just spent my time labouriously working out how this actually works as designed which has led me to theories the implications of what PI has tried to achieve here in HOI3 with it both balance wise and for the intended playing objective. This is not a complaint, just an epiphanic realisation, and full marks to them.

I think the most efficient Air Wing formation they intended is 3 squadrons, with limiting increasing effectiveness with extra squadrons up to 5 for bombers but importantly 6 maximum for Interception. Why? So that it encourages both the AI and players to stick with 3 squadron Air Wing formation stacks, so that when you have 1 of this size performing an air-to-ground bombing mission, if there is a need to escort them or to counter intercept to protect them then a group of 3 fighter squadrons will be able to adequately intervene creating that 6 max permissible stack for the air-to-air combat. That's what I think anyway.

It's also pretty realistic historically, except for those huge 1000 plane Strategic bomber raids which personally I'm not a fan of, but that's my opinion. Think about the Meuse crossings in 1940, I think the Luftwaffe only went in in groups of roughly 300 or so. (I admit I have no actual exact count, but I've read a lot about it and others) I don't think even at places like at the Battle of Kursk even where there were well over 1000 planes on each side, their actual bombing raids were much smaller on the province wide scale that HOI3 represents. Even the Battle of Britain and the mass bombing of London is represented well by PI's HOI3 air combat engine as designed.

I'm just saying I think I understand it now, duh!

Would I like to have things work differently, yes since I would like to play (as a major) with bombing groups of at least 6 squadrons and more, but the way the Stacking Penalty works, it just isn't a very good idea. Does using bigger than 3 squadron Wings of bombers have some advantages? Yes, 4 is still a relatively cost effective improvement for the air-to-ground attack and for the defence. 5 is not worthwild for the attack, I estimate between 4-5 percent more above the effectiveness of having 4, but defensively it does work out just at about 21.5% (25% increase in the number of planes to lessen the number of enemy shots exposed to at a 16.65% or so reduction of defensiveness efficiency of the 4 [so x 4] because of the increased Stacking Penalty) value wise unless my Maths is wrong. 6 is practically even defensively pretty much so that when you have a 3 squadron bomber wing intercepted and you get a wing group of 3 fighter squadrons to join the air-to-air combat it works out as the least worse effective defence than having greater than 6 of your squadrons involved. Difficulty levels don't change this overall assessment AFAIK.

I still like to use 4 squadrons in all my wings as a major, but I would concede that maybe having more, say 5 in a bomber wing or up to 6 in an Intercepting fighter group has its merits at least defensive anyway for spreading the absorption of enemy fire. I suppose it is an acceptable aerial warfare game play strategy in HOI3, so is sticking one Multi-role Fighter Squadron into your bomber Wings based on this too, since with 4 and especially with 5 it is the defensiveness that is benefiting more than the air-to-ground attack strength therefore I would only put one of these waeker SA/HA but better AD/SD MRFs in as an extra above 3 bombers and personally speaking probably only as the 5th, but cirtainly not as the third one in mixed wings of 3 like the AI does, pure homogeneous 3 are better with a proper Interception program plan. Although Multi-role fighters also reduce the range of both NAVs (by 50km at same level) and especially TACs (by 175km at same level) and that is another good reason not to mix them. I feel that the range of TAC is a major advantage that they have over CAS as well as their heavier SA value.

Still I would really really like to use 6 squadron bomber wings, but should still I think the whole design is excellent.
 
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Apart from supply and organisation issues, defending or attacking en-masse has always been preferable, whether in the air, on land or at sea.
A penalty for having a overwhelming numerical advantage makes absolutely no military sense to me. If the US President offered 100k more troops for Kandihar etc, the generals would consider this a bonus, not a penalty. IMO stacking is the stupidest thing about HOI, although I admit that I do not understand the concept, but that is because it make no frecking sense to me.
 

malize

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Apart from supply and organisation issues, defending or attacking en-masse has always been preferable, whether in the air, on land or at sea.
A penalty for having a overwhelming numerical advantage makes absolutely no military sense to me. If the US President offered 100k more troops for Kandihar etc, the generals would consider this a bonus, not a penalty. IMO stacking is the stupidest thing about HOI, although I admit that I do not understand the concept, but that is because it make no frecking sense to me.

Well yes and no.

In general having numerical superiority is good, but having *enough* numbers applied correctly is better.

With more numbers comes increased logistical demands...and as a general rule the more troops you employ the more casaulties you take - simply through normal operational attrition if nothing else. Additionally, force attracts force - which you may not always want either.

Basically you can fill the horizon with your men, ships, and aircraft...but that also means that your less numerous opponent has more maneuver room without tripping over his own forces and he can reliably fire into the overwhelming mass and have a good probability of hitting something.

Now if your overwhelming mass can locate, fix, and fire on him he's in trouble - for sure. But are you going to take any friendly fire being all around him ?
 

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Apart from supply and organisation issues, defending or attacking en-masse has always been preferable, whether in the air, on land or at sea.
A penalty for having a overwhelming numerical advantage makes absolutely no military sense to me. If the US President offered 100k more troops for Kandihar etc, the generals would consider this a bonus, not a penalty. IMO stacking is the stupidest thing about HOI, although I admit that I do not understand the concept, but that is because it make no frecking sense to me.

I think you simplified it too much. 100k more troops does nothing if you or the area can't use them. What you actually want is the maximum number of troops that can be effectivly used. A small force defending a narrow passage will be just as effective, if not more so then one 100 times larger. Only so many trrops can be used in any given situation.

1000 planes is nice but if they are all from one airfield then that means it takes hours just to get them in the air and formed up. By then the first group of planes have to land to refuel.

A million men charging without order are just a million potential deaths. better to have a much smaller force fighting in unison supporting each other. So having more is not the real answer.
 

Warlordtheft

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Just to throw my .02 cents. I understood that the stacking penalty is reduced by the commanders skill level.

If true, What is the optimal size of a squadron per skill level? Is it 1 for 1 (Skill1=no benefit, skill 2=2 planes, 3=3planes etc)?
 

unmerged(181758)

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From the below Airforce Strategy guide link on the HOI Wiki it advises primarily for Interceptors/Multi-Role Fighters under Stack Size;
http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Airforce_strategy

“Every wing beyond the first incurs a significant stacking penalty. Due to this penalty, the most efficient stack size is simply one wing of aircraft (representing 100 fighters). Due to the stacking penalty, you do not want to have super-stacks flying around. The stacking penalty is 10% for every wing above the first one. The most effective stack size though cannot be told beforehand, as the optimum shifts towards higher stack sizes the more bonuses you get from technology, experience and leaders.

Examples: With 0% additional bonuses from tech/experience/leaders, the stack size that packs the most punch is five or six wings, with 30% bonuses it becomes seven wings and with 50% it becomes eight wings. For further details confer Air_combat_reference. [http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Stacking_penalty#Stacking_Penalty]

Since you normally want a compromise between efficiency and effectiveness, you would settle for stack sizes between four and six planes.

Also be aware of the air leader command limits, which are 4/8/12/16. So usually the two lowest ranks are absolutely sufficient, but as soon as two groups operate in the same area and may end in the same air battle one of the two air leaders should be promoted accordingly, if this situation is to occur more often. Higher ranks are nearly useless as there is no reason for a player to have those huge stacks with those huge penalties.”

However despite what this says I don’t think the optimal number really changes since it is the same 10% Penalty per extra squadron, so the ratio difference between the various numbers doesn’t really change even though as the bonuses accrue and increase the total benefit to all stack sizes it just means the effectiveness of each stack size improves at a similar rate. The ratio difference doesn’t change no matter how many positive bonuses are employed, the effective efficiency ratio changes between the different sizes is going to remain the same.

Well that looks simple but as we know the bonuses and other penalties affect final strength points of both attack and defence, especially for INT/MRF on either Interception or Air Superiority Missions in Air-to-Air combat because they instantly obtain a 20% attack bonus, but it isn’t applied to their defence.

Also the way that the whole sum of penalties and bonuses are applied to produce the actual efficiency modifier isn’t simple, have a look at the bottom of the Air Stacking Penalty Wiki, see here:
http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Stacking_penalty#Stacking_Penalty

So it goes like this, the base value is increased by the experience bonus and then that result (for instance at 30% experience is 1.3) is then increased by the Interception bonus of 20% (so 1.3 times 1.2 = 1.56) then the Mission efficiency value of your TECH advance in this at 5% per level is applied followed by the 10% radio bonus is applied (1.56 times 1.1 = 1.716) other bonuses such as 10% base proximity, Night Flyer trait & Axis territorial pride and penalties such as Weather and Night difficulty are applied next somewhere in order I think then the Stacking Penalty is applied second last reducing the variable rate of everything else above it in the order, then finally the Leadership Modifier is applied.

The way this works is important because all those other bonuses – penalty result is reduced by the Stacking Penalty just before the Leadership skill bonus at 5% per skill point modifier is applied. This means that an extra skill point Leader has proportionally greater benefit than a similar percentage bonus in other areas before they are reduced by the Stacking Penalty modifier. So an extra point of skill at 5% is worth more than an extra level of Mission efficiency also at 5%. Similarly 2 extra points of Leadership skill at 10% has a slightly better effect than another 10% bonus such as base proximity.

I don’t know why this is designed to work this way but bear this in mind, at a guess it allows you to rationalise employing better skilled Leaders more. Anyway going with higher skilled Air Leaders is a real benefit. Interesting I’d have to work it out but employ a Leader with 3 skill points more than one with the Night Flyer trait is better, although I’m not sure about one with 2 skill points above, but I think so.

Getting back to effectiveness between different Stack sizes and if bonuses including Leader skill points allow greater stack sizes, my experience tells me that there is not a difference between improving the ratio of efficiency, but while there is an increase in effectiveness in numbers and total strength points it isn’t efficient beyond a point really.

Most players would opt for 3, personally I opt for stacks of 4, netting between 63% to 70% of the value of that fourth extra squadron while for a fifth it ranges between 4-5% even after developing Mission efficiency several Levels and using high skilled Leaders and also increasing experience, very slowly.
3 is better than 2 or 1 effectively, even though at all times the efficiency difference is in favour of the smaller size because of the smaller Stacking Penalty applied. So IMHO it remains 3 or 4 or up to 5 (6 for INT/MRF) maximum Air Stack size no matter what the skill level of the Leader is, although as high as possible is best.
 

unmerged(181758)

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Just to throw my .02 cents. I understood that the stacking penalty is reduced by the commanders skill level.

If true, What is the optimal size of a squadron per skill level? Is it 1 for 1 (Skill1=no benefit, skill 2=2 planes, 3=3planes etc)?

There is always a benefit from each Leadership skill at 5% per level, there is not an optimal stack size per Leader skill level although the total efficiency increases the effectiveness of the different stack sizes but not so much to change the optimal stack size IMHO.
 

tanku

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...
Examples: With 0% additional bonuses from tech/experience/leaders, the stack size that packs the most punch is five or six wings, with 30% bonuses it becomes seven wings and with 50% it becomes eight wings. For further details confer Air_combat_reference. [http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi3wiki/Stacking_penalty#Stacking_Penalty]
...
This is not true. Optimal number of wings is always constant. From wiki:
...
Remember modifiers are multiplied. A +30% experience modifiers does not shift the equilibrium to 8 planes. Each air unit beyond the 6th will always net a weaker force. The only exception are CAGs (carrier air groups), which only have a -5% stacking penalty.
...

...
So an extra point of skill at 5% is worth more than an extra level of Mission efficiency also at 5%. Similarly 2 extra points of Leadership skill at 10% has a slightly better effect than another 10% bonus such as base proximity.
...
This is also not true. Modifiers are multiplied and multiplication is associative. 3*4*5 is the same as 5*4*3.
 

Bullfrog

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The issues raised in this thread and the inconsistencies with reality present in HoI shows the need for a system redesign.

By no means should massive groups of 400-600 craft "air fleets" be the norm for air missions. Effective coverage of airspace requires many small unit sorties, reserves and a huge spread of forces.

Granted, this lumping of air units makes gameplay easy, but it seems wrong to me.