Airplanes for... what???

[Strategist]

Indeed, I do want air support like you have artillery support. I have a few books about 1914 and 1915 written in 1915 and 1916. They are speaking about the great impact of airplanes, and their expectations that it will be the most important weapon in wars to come. They are especcially very positive about the German 'Teube' and are speaking about its effect on especcially the Galicia area, but also in northern France. They claim that without the Teube's the Germans and Austrians would have lost the battles for Galicia and that would have meant an early end to the Austrian activity in the war. As it was now, it was 3 times very close, and only the 4th Russian attempt was a major failure. The book is about the history of the Great war, and is about as close to the period you can get, except for diaries, in which is spoken about the great fear for the planes as well. So, I do dare to claim that at the places where airplanes where used during WWI it was more effective then artillery. Artillery was only so well known because it was used much more often, but still the airplanes impacted WWI.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

I thought you were discussion airplanes...

Ah, but we had moved on to bugreports new infantry.

However, the point still stands; if you want to substitute on of the naval units for a plane unit, it will only be able to operate over water.

That is quite simply false. Airpower played a significant role in the First World War. It was used extensively and very successfully in reconnaissance, but also in actual combat operations. For example, during operation Michael in 1918 the Germans paid dearly for the loss of their air superiority as Allied air corps flew round the clock missions bombing and strafing the advancing German infantry. What actual effect this had on the battle in terms of German losses I don't know, but it certainly had a very negative morale effect that was anything but inconsequential —there are few things more demoralizing in war then being at the mercy of an enemy’s unchecked air power.

Moreover, even earlier in the war when actual air to ground engagements were yet to be practical, establishing air superiority over a battlefield was again vital for morale purposes. The symbolic turning point of the battle of Verdun came when the famed German air force that had dominated the skies in the area for weeks was slowly (and quite visibly to the men on the ground) pushed back and Allies reclaimed air superiority over the battlefield.

This is the kind of posts that help convince me, rather than the "airplanes are teh r0xx0r" kind of posts

However, this might be something for Vicky 2; I really doubt there wil be major changes to the game engine for Vicky

 

[unmerged(35630)]

Ah, but we had moved on to bugreports new infantry.

after reading the thread i do think a new infantry unit is the way to go as far
as making airplane production a war asset. I just like the idea of tank and
artillery brigades for infantry, it seems more accurate.

Air was too important to be a brigade, it was what made a 1916 unit better than a 1914 unit or a 1870 unit for that matter.

 

[Gwalcmai]

But the way the game works, something is either a standalone unit that can win battles on its own (an infantry, dragoon or cavalry division), or it's something that is important as a way to enhance those standalone units's chances to win a battle. So, tanks aren't usable by themselves, they are used as an addition to divisions that enable them to break through the enemy's lines more easily. Likewise, the airplanes wouldn't defeat the enemy alone, they would help in spotting and bombardment to enable the ground troops to be more effective. So, they may be an attachment.

The modelling of aircraft as an attachment would require very basic modifications: just enable an additional brigade that mirrors the working of artillery brigades in giving a bonus to whoever has superiority in those attachments. That would be simpler than modelling it as a model of infantry, wouldn't it?

----------------------------

BTW, let's just look at the battle of Cambrai:

The attack was duly launched at dawn on the morning of 20 November 1917, with all available tanks advancing across a 10 km front. 476 tanks were accompanied by six infantry and two cavalry divisions (the latter to exploit any breakthrough), plus a further 1,000 guns. 14 newly formed squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps stood by - a forerunner of the blitzkrieg tactics employed to great effect by the German army during the Second World War. Notably the attack was not preceded by a preliminary bombardment, helping to ensure complete surprise.

Facing the British attack was the German Second Army led by Georg von der Marwitz. Within hours the lightly defended Germans were forced back some 6 km to Cambrai, the three trench systems of the Hindenburg Line pierced for the first time in the war.

The British achieved success all along the line, bar at Flesquieres (at the centre of the attack), where 51st Highland divisional commander Harper had determined not to work in tandem with tank commanders, suspicious of tank technology. Approximately 8,000 prisoners and 100 guns were captured on the first day alone.

All hail JFC Fuller. And a combined arms bonus wouldn't be amiss, either, in case you have tanks and aviation attachments with your divisions.

 

[unmerged(35630)]

That would be simpler than modelling it as a model of infantry, wouldn't it?

I don't know the difficulty, Its a suggestion to make plane production of
some value.

I am not against air brigades, but your forcing the player to choose between
air or artillery punch or tanks, and i see tanks losing on the choice, and
being used even less by players than they are now.

 

[unmerged(4990)]

They really should be their own unit in order to preserve the reality of air operations during WW1. No air squadron was tied down to any one division, they did their thing where and when needed. I doubt they'll be added in this incarnation of Vicky, though, because of engine issues. Unless they put it in the engine, but never made use of it? *scratches chin*

Either way, they should be very expensive and weaker than a HoI airplane for sure.

 

[Gwalcmai]

I don't think the airplanes of the time were incredibly expensive, I'd say they were probably less expensive than the aircraft of WWII. Just a guess.

And while I agree that air squadrons were not tied down to any division... Neither was the Royal Tank Corps. Or, using a more obscure example, the Portuguese Heavy Artillery Corps that was first trained in Portugal, then assigned to the French army to receive training with their equipment, then transferred to the British sector to receive a bit more training with British equipment, and ended their participation in WWI with very, very few shells fired in anger. So I don't see why air wings couldn't be an attachment to land divisions. Their main purpose was, after all, to either provide the land forces with spotting, do some trench strafing and bombing, or prevent the enemy from doing those things.

 

[unmerged(46195)]

The biggest impact during the early war period, was the use of airplanes and dirigibles for artillery reconnaissance. Artillery fire could be shifted relatively quickly to reflect where the shells where, and where not hitting. The need to attack these targets gave birth to fighter aircraft.

Areal reconnaissance was very useful to detect troop movements, but it wasn't until the advent of composition photography in mid 1916 that lines and troop/defensive positions became that the technology became indispensable. (This is where a number of photos are placed together to form a larger image. This requires a camera that could take a series of photos over a preplanned time [so that the photos overlap], and a platform that flies strait and level. Modern spy satellites use this technique, albeit at much higher altitude, with much less time between shots, and several orders of magnitude greater magnification.)

Two technologies would be very nice, one to increase artillery power, another to reduce the power of entrechments even further.

The number of aircraft produced during WW1:
France 67,987
Great Britain 58,144
Germany 48,537
Italy 20,000
USA 15,000
Austro-Hungarian Empire 5,431
Russia 4,700

Aircraft Lost in Combat
France 52,640
Great Britain 35,973
Germany 27,637

(Statistics Courtesy of http://www.theaerodrome.com , great site lots of info.)

So, it the air war was significant.

Though I reject the idea of a strategic air arm (Gothas, Handley-Pages, Zepplins), as numbers never topped 1000 for all sides.

A separate air unit would definitely be nice (combined light-bombers and fighters), but you would only get to use it for 6 years or so (definately no earlier than 1912).

 

[happydrifter]

However, this might be something for Vicky 2; I really doubt there wil be major changes to the game engine for Vicky

or some sort of hypothetical WW1 Paradox game

 

[unmerged(35630)]

Ok how is this, 5 new brigades, for infantry

1. Air
2. Air + Artillery
3. Air + Tanks
4. Artillery & Tanks
5. Artilley & Tanks & Air

The costs for the Tanks & Artillery are already defined, just need a
cost for air.

#5 would be like 1918 stormtroopers.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

I'll play devil's advocate on this one;

Which 5 brigades should those replace?

 

[Gwalcmai]

Ok how is this, 5 new brigades, for infantry

1. Air
2. Air + Artillery
3. Air + Tanks
4. Artillery & Tanks
5. Artilley & Tanks & Air

The costs for the Tanks & Artillery are already defined, just need a
cost for air.

#5 would be like 1918 stormtroopers.

Why? Why not just make a new air brigade, and give combined arms bonus to the stack if there are air, tank and arty brigades in it? Wouldn't that be a lot simpler?

Either way, no way to make this by modding. It would be patch material, and... well, it's doubtful.

I wish the brigade definitions included an entry defining which units the brigade can be attached to. Then you could just say "minelayers are not minelayers anymore, they are air brigades, and can only be attached to land units". (Also, if there was a way to define which generation a ship is in, we could drop the monitors and make a nice last generation ship with a flat top and an air brigade attached )

 

[unmerged(35630)]

I'll play devil's advocate on this one;

Which 5 brigades should those replace?

You are evil

I'd say none, if replacement is the case

For an end of game unit it seems more trouble than it's worth.
same goes for aircraft, I have more fun in early and mid game
than end game, I rarely go much beyond 1900.

 

[captainradish]

Got a question: is it possible to write a script that reads the amount of aircraft you have and apply an appropriate change to your military forces? Meaning, if you have such and such amount of aircraft increase your military shock value by such and such an amount.

If it is possible, it would be nice to compare your amount of aircraft to your enemy's amount and have random events that change the amount of aircraft you have -- meaning, say you're playing Germany and you have 145 aircraft. You are in a war with Denmark who has 55 aircraft. Your military advantage is greater than Denmark's even if you have exactly the same level of military technology (albiet slight). Now, lets say Denmark gets a random even saying that some of their aircraft were destroyed in combat -- comparing the size of the German airforce with the size of the Danish -- now Germany has a larger advantage because the affect of the Danish airforce is smaller.

Can this be done? I admit, I am a lousy script writer.

 

[Gwalcmai]

No, that's not possible AFAIK. It would also not be a very good solution. For one thing the airplanes in the stockpile are not necessarily military units. It would also be a tad strange: "Aha, my aircraft stockpile is humongous, you are toast!"

 

[unmerged(35630)]

Seems the thinking is hung up on aircraft, rather than airpower

i think 2 brigades

1. 1916 this is artillery / air

2. 1918 this is artillery / air / tanks

Both would cost airplanes to build.

 

[SR-71]

OT, is your name from the band SR71?
I like them

(OT answer)

No, it's from Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird Mach 3 airplane.

Sure I'd like SR-71 band too...

Greetings

 

[SR-71]

Sure I'm reading real COOL ideas in this thread, it's nice to see how an ancient thread can come back to live

The 191X infantry replacing Dragoons and Cavalry seems very good, I think could be possible as with ships, a new type replaces the ancient one, couldn't be?

Greetings

 

[unmerged(35630)]

Sure I'm reading real COOL ideas in this thread, it's nice to see how an ancient thread can come back to live

The 191X infantry replacing Dragoons and Cavalry seems very good, I think could be possible as with ships, a new type replaces the ancient one, couldn't be?

Greetings

I wonder what happens when you "replace" a unit, does China all of sudden
get 50 191x units because it had a lot of old units ?

 

[Zaleukos]

Combined arms is a bit odd in a WW1 setting, the planes were in practice only used for scouting. Hand-dropped 5kg bombs didnt make much diff in the outcome of ground battles. Making them a brigade with a potential bonus if they outnumber the enemies planes seems the only sensible solution.

Being able to see two zones away when planes are attached to divisions or ships could be considered, but I dont think it can be implemented in the moddable data files.