Air power, Does it get better?

[unmerged(27886)]

As Germany I have invested a bit in Airpower. I have basic TAC, basic CAS, basic INT, basic ESC, and basic FTR. Its late '39 and I have researched allowable air doctrines.

I have 3 squadrons of 3 TAC, 1ESC. 2 Squadrons of 3 CAS, 1 FTR. 5 squadrons of 3 INT. and 2 squadrons of 3 FTR.

My INT cannot shoot down enemy bombers. Sometimes I do enough org dammage to drive them back, sometimes not.

My FTR on air superiority take more dammage then they deal out.

My CAS/TAC dont seem to do ANYTHING on the offensive against enemy positions before or after they break.

At this point it seems like I have wasted a ton of IC on no return. As the TECH's are upgraded, do these investments become worth it? or are they always this pathetic?

 

[unmerged(50583)]

I usually use interceptors as Germany and dont even research fighters. They seldom shoot down planes but they do large ORG damage and drive them back usually.
Use TAC for interdiction when starting an attack against a province.
Use CAS for Ground attack. They are very usefull when attackin retreating armies.

 

[Mork]

Heh, airpower is generally taken as being overpowered. You might re-think how you use it.
You are using the lastest patch, right?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

If you invest in Airpower, invest heavily.
I have recently palyed a game as ger, on hard/normal, building almost air-only.
The polish army was bombed to death after 3 weeks.
The french army was completly destroyed after 6 weeks.
...and then, the save became corrupted. Shame... But i am going for a rematch, so much 4 sure.

Some things you should consider:
1) Always create 4 unit stacks, much better defence against enemy fighters. Use escorts for TAC and NAV.
2) Group your interceptors together. A minmum of 4 is a must for me, against larger treats, i use 8-12 squads, but rarely more, since i get stacking penalty.
3) Try to bomb the enemy on retreat. If hes dug in, you wont deal much damage (yet org can be downed a bit easier)
4) Train your units by bombing some dug in units for a few month. 100 XP CAS will even rip dug in enemys to pieces - slow but steady.
5) Invest heavily in air techtree. Research planes about 1 year before regular date, air doctrines are a must have, asap!
6) Bigger airfields restore more org of your planes as small onces. Rebasing more planes on a single airfield reduces overall org regain from it [<- iirc, maybe no longer in DD]
7) Use TAC and logisitc strikes against single heavily defended points, islands or cities for example. 0 infra = -50% combat efficency for your enemy and much lower org regain

Air units are insanely overpowered... I doubt you can use them a smoothly in MP as against ai, but they should still kick ass...

[edit]post #100

 

[unmerged(27886)]

Heh, airpower is generally taken as being overpowered. You might re-think how you use it.
You are using the lastest patch, right?

1.3B with GDE fix.

Here's how I use it.

I plan my attack for 8am with ground troops. I start my TAC on Interdiction at 9am and my CAS on ground attack at 9am. Let em rip. Once the enemy breaks, either I change the region the TAC is operating on, or switch them to ground attack.

 

[Mork]

1.3B with GDE fix.

Here's how I use it.

I plan my attack for 8am with ground troops. I start my TAC on Interdiction at 9am and my CAS on ground attack at 9am. Let em rip. Once the enemy breaks, either I change the region the TAC is operating on, or switch them to ground attack.

Hehe, then you are using it wrong .

Use interdiction before combat (and during), it doesn't matter much that you set your CAS to this job as well, but ground attack is not very useful against non-moving units.
Another way, if you want to ensure that your bombers attack a certain province, is to set your bombers orders *after* combat has started (just unpause/pause), that way they focus on the units in combat. Still only use interdiction before the units rout. WHen they are routing, switch to ground attack.
You can use ground attack prior to engagement, but it should only be done with a moving front, that is against units that are moving.


Edit: You can let your air units run interdiction at all times, it does work. The problem is that if they attack units on the run you get nothing out of it.

 

[blue emu]

... You can let your air units run interdiction at all times, it does work. The problem is that if they attack units on the run you get nothing out of it.

Not quite true... retreating units regain ORG as they retreat. Continuing to Interdict retreating units will ensure that they finish their retreat at low ORG, instead of being partially recovered... useful if you are planning a deep penetration and encirclement.

Still... as Mork points out, it's more profitable to switch to Ground Attack as soon as the opponent starts withdrawing.

 

[unmerged(13745)]

Not quite true... retreating units regain ORG as they retreat. Continuing to Interdict retreating units will ensure that they finish their retreat at low ORG, instead of being partially recovered... useful if you are planning a deep penetration and encirclement.

Still... as Mork points out, it's more profitable to switch to Ground Attack as soon as the opponent starts withdrawing.

ground attacking retreating units is what makes air overpowered as you can destroy entire divisions that way right?

Is there anything else that makes air overpowered?

 

[GAGA Extrem]

ground attacking retreating units is what makes air overpowered as you can destroy entire divisions that way right?

Is there anything else that makes air overpowered?

1) Navs eat any fleet to breakfast. Theres no safe place. You can even strike them while they are in a seaport.
2) You can bomb enemy Org to almost zero within days
3) You can annihilate whole armies within days by ground attacking
4) You need almost no MP for the airforce
5) AA Guns are almost useless against air
6) Any moving divison is fodder for CAS on ground attack mode - even if its hundret miles beyond the front line.
7) Especially CAS can attack to far with the region system. if you have large provinces in the same region, your CAS can fly thousand kilometeres, even if their range is only 250
8) Air units gain insanly fast XP. Within one or two month you can create 100XP units.

 

[blue emu]

ground attacking retreating units is what makes air overpowered as you can destroy entire divisions that way right?

Correct.

Is there anything else that makes air overpowered?

It's certainly the main thing.

Air units can attack every day... sometimes twice or more per day... whereas Ground Units can usually only attack once or twice per week on average, due to the need to move from province to province, and because of the 24-hour 'hold' after being involved in combat.

Air units can gain experience quickly... as USSR, it only takes about three months of fighting to bring the CAS experience up to near 100%... and each two XP are worth +1% combat modifier.

So after a few months of daily bombing, those CAS are receiving +50% combat modifier, from unit experience alone.

By comparison, a Skill-4 Tank Buster (an excellent Leader) only adds +8% combat modifier for his Skill, and +10% combat modifier for his Trait... only about one-third as much combat bonus.

 

[unmerged(13745)]

1) Navs eat any fleet to breakfast. Theres no safe place. You can even strike them while they are in a seaport.
2) You can bomb enemy Org to almost zero within days
3) You can annihilate whole armies within days by ground attacking
4) You need almost no MP for the airforce
5) AA Guns are almost useless against air
6) Any moving divison is fodder for CAS on ground attack mode - even if its hundret miles beyond the front line.
7) Especially CAS can attack to far with the region system. if you have large provinces in the same region, your CAS can fly thousand kilometeres, even if their range is only 250

ok so theres not really any need to nerf air since improving the different units air defence or air attack or both would be better.

AA guns should clearly be more effective against air thou.
And i think moving divisions should get a major bonus to air defense as its harder hitting a moving target.

So its not really air thats overpowered afterall but rather everything else thats underpowered
Right?

 

[blue emu]

... And i think moving divisions should get a major bonus to air defense as its harder hitting a moving target.

I'm afraid not... recall the scale of the game. That 'Tank' does not represent a Tank... it represents an Armored Division.

It's much easier to SEE a moving target... and Aircraft can usually whack any target that they can clearly see.

The penalty for attacking stationary, dug-in units is quite correct, since such units can camoflage themselves. Moving units must forgo camoflage.

Also... moving units are subject to bottle-necks (roads, bridges) where they can be easily spotted and effectively bombed. Stationary units can deploy themselves, to limit the damage any bombing mission can cause.

 

[unmerged(13745)]

I'm afraid not... recall the scale of the game. That 'Tank' does not represent a Tank... it represents an Armored Division.

It's much easier to SEE a moving target... and Aircraft can usually whack any target that they can clearly see.

The penalty for attacking stationary, dug-in units is quite correct, since such units can camoflage themselves. Moving units must forgo camoflage.

Also... moving units are subject to bottle-necks (roads, bridges) where they can be easily spotted and effectively bombed. Stationary units can deploy themselves, to limit the damage any bombing mission can cause.

True i guess but its still not always easy to hit a moving target even if it is easier to see.
Afterall back then they dident use bombs or missiles that would actually hit what it was aimed at.
But even if its the case i still think moving divisions should gain a major bonus to air defense.
That way the "exploit" of destroying entire divisions with air would be less effective and thus making air less overpowered.
Alternative would be to nerf air which i dont see as a viable option.
Because if i understand it correctly then nerfing air would only hurt people not using air to destroy divisons.

And also i think since NAV is kinda overpowered against air (guess CAS is too) and the best option there would be to increase ships air defense and air attack then why not do same with divisions.?
And maybe even make AA brigades alot more usefull as well.. and make AA guns more usefull.
Afterall AA guns where quite usefull in rl. Not that this is rl but still.

 

[unmerged(50949)]

As Germany , You need to invest as well in Radar technology. And place Air bases through out provances. Each Time you send out fighters / intercepters to do Air superiorty runs. They automaticaly know where enemy is with the radar Thus giving them more hours of battle time and more time chasing them as they try to fly home to there bases. 4 intercepters with 1 airbase and provances with radar in them will tear up any number of stacks of bombers the Allies send at you. Fighters are more app to destroy other fighters but do very well against Escort fighters and intercepters and will dominate any Close airsupport. Its just matter of knowning what your opponent is using and finding out where he trys to strike with his air. If you have far more divisions of intercepters and fighters then opponents you will not have to worrie. Number of Airbases helps to regain org and str for damaged planes 1 base per dmg division is rule of thumb. Just like naval bases. But if I recall right there is a bonous given for having air bases in adjascent fighting provances or same provance as the air battle for the defending team.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

ok so theres not really any need to nerf air since improving the different units air defence or air attack or both would be better.

Indeed, that would help. But i guess it would be better to raise atk more than def, since u would havet to think about where to strike - and higher losses would mean lesss air XP

AA guns should clearly be more effective against air thou.
And i think moving divisions should get a major bonus to air defense as its harder hitting a moving target.

They should at least give more defence for units in the same provinces. damage values are quite okay...
...no, moving divs dont need a bonus vs air, just add 2-3 points of air defence so they can defend better (see your first part of post quoted above). Would make air effective against em, but not as destructive as its now

So its not really air thats overpowered afterall but rather everything else thats underpowered
Right?

Well, lets see... we got air 4 air units being overpowered...
...and alls ships and land divs underpowered... thats about 15+

Nah air is overpowered

 

[unmerged(55294)]

Another chance for anti-air lobby

In my opinion the most valuable asset in the war and game is manpower.

No or very little strength loss for aircraft bothers me. There are many examples where CAS are shot down while attacking armor. If you have read about hans ulrich rudell who is the ace of aces in a stuka he has been shot down on many occasions. Ground fire is deadly for any planes let that be fighters bombers or cas.

I agree that moving units through roads and could not disperse in the case of air attack suffer a lot of damage but they return fire nevertheless.

For example it is still debated if Red Baron has been shot down with ground fire.

Even after Germany has lot air superiority the air was not a bed of roses for allied aircraft.

Nobody liked flying over anti aircraft which could blow you out of sky.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

No or very little strength loss for aircraft bothers me.

But you have to admit that this counts for air vs ground only...
...if you loose an air battle or to, your planes are reduced to 80%-50% strengh.
...and thats a HELL lot of IC to resupply.
I had a game on very hard/normal where i had to spend 50IC on air renforcment, so i could intercept those StraBos flying over my borders and destroying all my ic.

But doesnt apply to 'normal' games, though.
...just mentioned as a sidenote.