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mld0806

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Sark6354201 said:
Not to be mean, but just give it up mld... Wardog's points are vastly superior to yours, I whole heartedly agree with Wardog, bravo.

Okay, so the point that missions attacking fortifications and positions is separate from ground attack and interdiction in game is flawed?

I don't disagree with some of WarDog's PREMISES, I disagree with what he wants implemented in the game, either because it just can't happen, or errs to the wrong side (IMHO) of historical accuracy.

And the "Can't Control The Air Force" bit is getting old. I seem to be able to do it just fine.
 

WarDog

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Mld, I'm afraid we talk past eachother. What I've been discussing is:

- The lack of ability to direct attacks at spesific provinces.
- The inefficency of attacks on dug-in troops.
- The lack of ability to use air support prior to an attack.
- The use of history to defend design desicions.

I believe I have established some historic basis for a different handling of air power in ww2.

For most nations the current system can - a bit exaggerated - reflect their historic technical and doctrinal level rather good. But for the nations that invested heavy in C3I, research and doctrinal development, there should be a possibility to reach a higher degree of integration with the front line units and the execution of battle plans.

A CAS (and a smaler TAC) -bonus to troops in battle is an idea worth considering. It could maybe revard an air strategy better.

The only way to get air more historically correct, would be to remove the air units and replace them with a system of combat-, IC-, MP-, infra- and ?-bonuses. But I do not believe anyone wants to loose those lovely planes. We just need some changes that makes more players use them!

I believe an ability to direct CAS/TAC to attack a single province could help with this.

I do not want planes to wipe out ground units. That happend only in some extreme occations IRL. At the same time I believe planes need to be stronger in the beginning of an attack.
 

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mld0806 said:
....I disagree with what he wants implemented in the game, either because it just can't happen, or errs to the wrong side (IMHO) of historical accuracy....


Let me stick my head out with an idea:

Maybe the perfect thing could be to give the planes a higher ability to damage units with 100% strenght, and make that ability decline and hit 0% when the ground unit is reduced to (maybe) 50% strenght?

I do not know if such an damage calculation would require a major (read expencive) code change, or if it is at all possible. But together with an ability to give province orders it could give the air bit a lot more punch, AND at the same time remove the ability to compleatly destroy ground units.

Wether the AI could handle it is yet another big question.

Maybe worth considering for HOI3?

Comments? Do I hear an axe??? ;)
 

mld0806

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WarDog said:
Let me stick my head out with an idea:

Maybe the perfect thing could be to give the planes a higher ability to damage units with 100% strenght, and make that ability decline and hit 0% when the ground unit is reduced to (maybe) 50% strenght?

I do not know if such an damage calculation would require a major (read expencive) code change, or if it is at all possible. But together with an ability to give province orders it could give the air bit a lot more punch, AND at the same time remove the ability to compleatly destroy ground units.

Wether the AI could handle it is yet another big question.

Maybe worth considering for HOI3?

Comments? Do I hear an axe??? ;)

I would definitely agree with that. As a unit takes damage, they take cover, and become more dispersed, meaning harder to attack.

I don't know if it could work with HOI2, though. You're right, perhaps for HOI3.

I really think to be PERFECT in modeling things, HOI will need a whole new engine design, above and beyond the EUII base. Of course, the question then arises, "Is it worth enough money for Paradox to make that sort of investment?"
 

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mld0806 said:
And the "Can't Control The Air Force" bit is getting old. I
seem to be able to do it just fine.

So you are the only person playing HOI2 who can direct the air forces to attack a specific province before the ground attack has begun...

And you know that air forces during WWII were put under command of the local army group or army. I'm pretty sure that they could direct those airforces a bit more precisely than a whole region. After all the player can direct a single division to a specific province...
One of the strengths of tactical air forces in WWII was that they were much more closely coordinated with ground forces especially in the late war. Thats why there were specially built vehicles and radios to help coordinate this.
The current model actually doesn't care if planes attack alone or at the same time as ground troops. Different defense and attack stats.

Good point about planes not being able to completely destroy units (maybe except units who are retreating). This point has not been made impossible by making planes less controllable, so this should not be given as a reason for the current control system...
 

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POJC said:
So you are the only person playing HOI2 who can direct the air forces to attack a specific province before the ground attack has begun...

a) he's never claimed that *before* the attack has begun

b) I've done it too, and so have others who've applied the FAQ

You're not exactly raising the level of debate with comments like that.

POJC said:
And you know that air forces during WWII were put under command of the local army group or army. I'm pretty sure that they could direct those airforces a bit more precisely than a whole region. After all the player can direct a single division to a specific province...
One of the strengths of tactical air forces in WWII was that they were much more closely coordinated with ground forces especially in the late war. Thats why there were specially built vehicles and radios to help coordinate this.
The current model actually doesn't care if planes attack alone or at the same time as ground troops. Different defense and attack stats.

Good point about planes not being able to completely destroy units (maybe except units who are retreating). This point has not been made impossible by making planes less controllable, so this should not be given as a reason for the current control system...

The reason it's there in the game system is because planes were most effective IRL when attacking targets of opportunity - strafing columns, bombing areas of concentration, etc. Front line bombardment is a role that can be fulfilled cheaper and at low risk by indirect or direct artillery fire. CAS may be more effective at it, but the situations where that becomes statistically important are restricted. Essentially FAC-controlled CAS is important in aiding breakthroughs, and providing artillery support in a fluid breakthrough situation, but that sounds like an effectiveness bonus to the ground units, rather than an enhanced ability to damage a dug-in defending unit.

The main issue as Wardog hints at is that we would need an additional doctrine, which seems unlikely, or an enhancement of certain existing doctrines. Hmmm. Maybe you would need a combination of a land and air doctrine to get the FAC/CAS bonus. Is that even possible?
 

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Hey all: Great discussion. And admittedly inexperienced player here, but I’d like to chime in with a few of my own thoughts. I would like to give three other examples of when the area targeting of aircraft in HOI2 seems to go against history and common sense.

1) As Japan, my infantry are sweeping southward through nationalist China. I’m encountering more resistance than I bargained for, and the fighting around Nanjing is something fierce. Then I realized that the Chinese neglected static AA, so I switch my TAC’s over from interdiction missions to strategic bombing to hit at the Chinese supply production. Soon afterwards my Marines land on the Chinese eastern front and begin marching into the Shanghai province. And my TAC’s? They’re still repeatedly pounding Shanghai industry, even though it’s down to about 0.2 and my own troops will be playing dice and drinking sake in those very factories within the week.
2) Puppeted those resilient Chinese, and I’ve moved on to the Russians. The Russian eastern front is woefully unprepared for the fury of Japanese aggression, and in the early weeks of the war, I manage to encircle about 12 divisions in the province of Ocha, which is an island, and another 5 or so on Ternie, which is on Russia’s eastern coast. The Russians are trying to resupply both armies with convoys, and my naval bombers are doing their best to raid them. Well, almost their best. Looking a the map, I could tell you exactly where those convoys are going, especially the ones from Ocha TO Ternie, but the plane AI sees fit to fly patrols all the way out to Shumushushima. Why can’t they just fly up and down the eastern coast (2 sea provinces) instead of buzzing around all 5.
3) Finally, the kicker. I’m battling Mongolian infantry in Saynshand and send my TAC’s in one hour after the infantry engagement, like everyone says. Japanese victory, and the enemy retreats in disorder. I quickly switch my TAC’s over to ground attack hoping to do some more permanent damage to the pride of Mongolia. Instead, the AI decides it’s better to REPEATEDLY fly across the entire country of Mongolia and attack a couple of infantry units dug into the MOUNTAIN region of Kyzyl, three month’s march away. Arrrggghhh!

Maybe I’m doing something wrong here, and I’m certainly open to suggestions, but here’s how I feel about this whole issue. You have to ask yourself why Paradox decided to go with area targeting in the first place. If I had to base it on my own experiences, I would say it was NOT because of historical accuracy. Rather, as was alluded to earlier, it was probably an attempt to decrease micromanagement. But I think it’s failed in that sense, to some degree. It’s still a pain to organize large strategic bombing campaigns, switching regions all the time, keeping the AA from rebuilding. I also don’t like how there are arbitrary lines drawn everywhere, for naval units too. If I want to keep Chinese ships out of the water, I must use two fleets, one for the Yellow Sea, one for the Taiwan straight.
Look I realize, NONE of these things are showstoppers for what is a GREAT game. But I do have an idea which would solve most of the problems, I believed. I fully realize this is a HOI3 idea, not an HOI2 one, but here goes. Give your naval or air unit a mission, then in the mission box there’s a drop down menu labeled “In the following provinces…” You can even shift-click on the map to populate this list, anywhere from 1 province to every province in range. This seems to me to be the easiest way to micromanage your forces, or at least to choose how much or how little micromanaging you want to do. See, you can try to justify what the AI does until you’re blue in the face, but the AI will always be imperfect because that’s the way it is and it can’t predict EVERY situation. Give people the flexibility to do what they want, even if it’s stupid like bombing dug in troops with attached AA in flimsy TAC’s. You can smash up half their planes, but at least let them learn the hard way. Let us use as little or as much AI as we want to, always the secret to a great game, I believe. Speaking of which, this IS a great game! Appreciate your responses…
 

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Horza said:
a) he's never claimed that *before* the attack has begun

b) I've done it too, and so have others who've applied the FAQ

You're not exactly raising the level of debate with comments like that.

a)Well saying that u have fine control of air forces is just that.
Saying that u can make the best out of the current control system is something completely different...
Saying stuff that is out of touch with reality (IRL and gamewise) that's not raising the level of debate.
b) I used the FAQ, it's excellent work but does not change the fact that something which is WAD, has not been the best design decision...


Horza said:
The reason it's there in the game system is because planes were most effective IRL when attacking targets of opportunity - strafing columns, bombing areas of concentration, etc. Front line bombardment is a role that can be fulfilled cheaper and at low risk by indirect or direct artillery fire. CAS may be more effective at it, but the situations where that becomes statistically important are restricted. Essentially FAC-controlled CAS is important in aiding breakthroughs, and providing artillery support in a fluid breakthrough situation, but that sounds like an effectiveness bonus to the ground units, rather than an enhanced ability to damage a dug-in defending unit.

The main issue as Wardog hints at is that we would need an additional doctrine, which seems unlikely, or an enhancement of certain existing doctrines. Hmmm. Maybe you would need a combination of a land and air doctrine to get the FAC/CAS bonus. Is that even possible?

Well this is what i've been saying all the time, add a bonus to effectiveness.
And well that TAC/CAS was not being directed just ask the germans after D-day. Also there will much more targets of opportunity when a unit is in combat, since supplies and units will need to be moved around (No this is not represented by dug in level).
 

krasny

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i think the general consensus is air power is broken

i have given up playing the game because seeing my air units bomb the wrong province time and time again is so frustrating

i could understand air missions missing the target and returning home, that happend quite a lot, but always bombing the wrong province is a farce

the system is stupid. in reality battlefield support missions would be requested by the generals, who would not request bombing of empty provinces

the situation as it stands is nucking futs and a farce

what is a WAD anyway? was it written by god on tablets of stone?

please paradox don't leave this otherwise excellent game as a laughing stock
 

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krasny said:
i think the general consensus is air power is broken

i have given up playing the game because seeing my air units bomb the wrong province time and time again is so frustrating

i could understand air missions missing the target and returning home, that happend quite a lot, but always bombing the wrong province is a farce

the system is stupid. in reality battlefield support missions would be requested by the generals, who would not request bombing of empty provinces

the situation as it stands is nucking futs and a farce

what is a WAD anyway? was it written by god on tablets of stone?

please paradox don't leave this otherwise excellent game as a laughing stock


As this, and other, threads demonstrate, there is no consensus on this. There is on the other hand some frustration among an undefined number of players, as your examples and rather colorful language demonstrates...

I do not understand those that give up the game due to the challenges that faces the handling of the air war. HOI2 is a great game and I play it with mucho pleasure!

The air war can be frustrating and for some of us, lacking in historical references, but it is no game breaker for me. Thx to Paradox' costumer friendly policy, we are all invited to comment and discuss on this forum.

Its informative and good that other players participate, even with a short "I agree", "I disagree" or a more lengthy answer. But please show your host and the makers of the game normal courtesy...

And on the subject of WAD:
I do not know about any tablets of stone.....
....but it was written by god (of thunder and rock'n roll) :)
 

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WarDog said:
As this, and other, threads demonstrate, there is no consensus on this. There is on the other hand some frustration among an undefined number of players, as your examples and rather colorful language demonstrates...

i can't think of that many people who like the system, most people who have opined have noted the short commings of the system

I do not understand those that give up the game due to the challenges that faces the handling of the air war. HOI2 is a great game and I play it with mucho pleasure!

i did not give up on the game due to the stategic challenges posed by the game, but by the sheer frustration at seeing air assests defy common sense over and over again. air assests missing the target is nothing new, but bombing a target in a distant province? i don't think so

The air war can be frustrating and for some of us, lacking in historical references, but it is no game breaker for me. Thx to Paradox' costumer friendly policy, we are all invited to comment and discuss on this forum.

i really would like to see even god justify this awful air system. failing god, maybe a developer for paradox could stop by and spread wisdom amongst the doubting thomas' amonsgt us

its hardly unique for a game company to host a forum, after all it makes sense to get free feedback on a game. whether they actually listen or not is debatable


Its informative and good that other players participate, even with a short "I agree", "I disagree" or a more lengthy answer. But please show your host and the makers of the game normal courtesy...

where have i been discourtious? just becuase i am not a fawning sychophant, agreeing with everything that is uttered by the gods of paradox

And on the subject of WAD:
I do not know about any tablets of stone.....
....but it was written by god (of thunder and rock'n roll) :)

the only justification i have heard for the current air system is that it reduces micro management. using the area sytem does reduce it to a small extent, but it also throws the baby out with the bath water

if reducing micro management was an aim maybe auto deployment of garrison units could have been implemented
 

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It should be able to attack every specific province with tac and so on in range because:

Take a look about how it is for real. Becuase after all, this game is supposed to be a good game after all*... In reality you can bomb every got damn province no matter if it is a city or what. It is effective to bomb, but how can it be too effective? Lets show an example: You want to bomb the troops in Helsingfors (Helsiniki) becuase you are going to launch an attack. Instead of bombing Hels. your bombers fly to another province and drop the bombs there. What would the Air Marshal say? What would the troops say about that? You know what.

WW2: Allied bombers launch an bombing campaign against Berlin. Then they bomb Berlin. Not Hamburg...


*It is a very good game... *sigh*
 

WarDog

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krasny said:
the only justification i have heard for the current air system is that it reduces micro management. using the area sytem does reduce it to a small extent, but it also throws the baby out with the bath water


As you know, if you read this and earlier threads, I agree with you on this. The idea of reduced micromanagement is good, but the inaccuracy built in to the area-system completely negates any gain.

The air system in HOI1 was micro-hell for many with regard to fighters and int. TAC/CAS was so strong that most of us loved to use them.

In HOI2 there is a lot more micro to get the air bit to work (if it can be done). Take a look at the FAQ and you'll be longing for HOI1 control. To get air to work there is no easy way. The procedures is quite complex and whether they work is at least a matter of debate.

The sheer fact that these air-threads keep popping up, with new frustrated players, should tell Paradox that there is a problem.

What - and if - they want to do anything about it is completely up to Paradox.
 

unmerged(39280)

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I agree with WarDog in general, but im aware that there wont be major changes in HOI2 engine (sadly), but maybe someday Paradox will make another WW2 grand strategy game - disussions like this wont be wasted.

What disturbs me the most however, is that some people are trying to explain current air system in terms of historical accuracy. I can accept that it is a WAD. I agree that with some work you can make air forces at least partially usefull. I can not accept the arguments that it models historical reality well - its just that some people are defending designers decision at all cost, any amount of arguments can not change their minds because of "Everything is perfect as it is now" philosophy.

Possible solutions (for HOI3 rather than 2):
- Add a bonus in effectivness to troops supported by CAS in battle (perhaps TAC too) + make targeting of a province possible (one mission - NUKE allows it already :p )
- OR abstract air forces, no more "stacks" and particular air units.
- OR many interesting propositions were made in various threads...
 

mld0806

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Serus said:
I agree with WarDog in general, but im aware that there wont be major changes in HOI2 engine (sadly), but maybe someday Paradox will make another WW2 grand strategy game - disussions like this wont be wasted.

What disturbs me the most however, is that some people are trying to explain current air system in terms of historical accuracy. I can accept that it is a WAD. I agree that with some work you can make air forces at least partially usefull. I can not accept the arguments that it models historical reality well - its just that some people are defending designers decision at all cost, any amount of arguments can not change their minds because of "Everything is perfect as it is now" philosophy.

Possible solutions (for HOI3 rather than 2):
- Add a bonus in effectivness to troops supported by CAS in battle (perhaps TAC too) + make targeting of a province possible (one mission - NUKE allows it already :p )
- OR abstract air forces, no more "stacks" and particular air units.
- OR many interesting propositions were made in various threads...

What's not historical about area operations? Let's take a P51 Mustang on Interdiction patrol, for example. No ground direction, so they're hunting for targets of opportunity. The P51 is capable of dive speeds of 500+ mph, but cruise speed was of 275 mph or 4.5 miles per minute. At this rate of speed, you can cover a province (we'll average province to province at 150 miles) in 33 minutes or so.

Now, loitering over an area is asking to be shot down, even with air superiority the Nazis still had aircraft that would get up in the air.

With a range of 1200 miles, the P-51 operating from England would have approximately 600 (and this is probably WAY short if launched from the coast and patrolling over France) miles of patrol fuel and time before having to turn for home IF it didn't burn any fuel in higher speed operation. At 275 mph, this equates to about 2 hours of patrolling, covering about 3.6 provinces worth of ground covered. Again, remaining in an area is suicidal, and passing repeatedly over the same area is deadly. With visibility on a clear day 20+ statute miles from the air, if you remained in a one province area, chances of getting spotted are pretty good. Armed for ground attack, the fighter isn't manuverable enough to combat the FW-190 or the Me-109, so air combat would want to be avoided as much as possible.

All of this means that a standard interdiction patrol by aircraft would cover at LEAST 2 provinces in area WITHOUT even a guarantee of being able to engage anything meaningful in any of those areas. If they kept in any smaller of an area for two hours, they could be caught and shot down.
 

unmerged(15260)

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mld0806 said:
What's not historical about area operations? Let's take a P51 Mustang on Interdiction patrol, for example. No ground direction, so they're hunting for targets of opportunity. The P51 is capable of dive speeds of 500+ mph, but cruise speed was of 275 mph or 4.5 miles per minute. At this rate of speed, you can cover a province (we'll average province to province at 150 miles) in 33 minutes or so.

Now, loitering over an area is asking to be shot down, even with air superiority the Nazis still had aircraft that would get up in the air.

With a range of 1200 miles, the P-51 operating from England would have approximately 600 (and this is probably WAY short if launched from the coast and patrolling over France) miles of patrol fuel and time before having to turn for home IF it didn't burn any fuel in higher speed operation. At 275 mph, this equates to about 2 hours of patrolling, covering about 3.6 provinces worth of ground covered. Again, remaining in an area is suicidal, and passing repeatedly over the same area is deadly. With visibility on a clear day 20+ statute miles from the air, if you remained in a one province area, chances of getting spotted are pretty good. Armed for ground attack, the fighter isn't manuverable enough to combat the FW-190 or the Me-109, so air combat would want to be avoided as much as possible.

All of this means that a standard interdiction patrol by aircraft would cover at LEAST 2 provinces in area WITHOUT even a guarantee of being able to engage anything meaningful in any of those areas. If they kept in any smaller of an area for two hours, they could be caught and shot down.

This is total nonsense. Did you just make this up???

How do you think that bombings of german cities were planned. Picture the Air Marshall pointing on a broad circle on the map. " Now u men go out and bomb whatever suits your fancy, either Berlin or Hamburg i don't really care.."

Or D-day: " Men, in two hours the cannon fodder will attack the beach in this province called normandy, but i want you guys to just loiter around perhaps attack Bretagne, there's no reason to help them out, ti's only a heavily fortified beach..."
 

mld0806

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POJC said:
This is total nonsense. Did you just make this up???

How do you think that bombings of german cities were planned. Picture the Air Marshall pointing on a broad circle on the map. " Now u men go out and bomb whatever suits your fancy, either Berlin or Hamburg i don't really care.."

Or D-day: " Men, in two hours the cannon fodder will attack the beach in this province called normandy, but i want you guys to just loiter around perhaps attack Bretagne, there's no reason to help them out, ti's only a heavily fortified beach..."

WTF, dude? Who said anything about bombing cities? That's a hunting mission, also known as Interdiction and Ground Attack. The only time those sorts of missions were targeted, EVEN IN A CITY, was with GROUND CONTROL represented by PRIORITIZING ACTIVE COMBAT AFTER COMBAT HAS BEEN ENGAGED.

You're talking about Logistical Strike, Strategic Attack, and Facility Strike when you're talking about Berlin or Hamburg or Normandy. The devestation of the cities came not from attacking units, or preparing them for attack, but from terror bombing, which isn't and never will be a part of the game. You don't bomb Berlin, you bomb the factories around Berlin.

Again, I reitterate, the attacks against NORMANDY WERE AGAINST POSITIONS, BRIDGES, AND LINES OF COMMUNICATION, NOT THE UNITS THERE! And if you tell a unit to Logistical Strike, Strategic Bombard, or Facility Strike, USUALLY they go there. Wasn't one complaint earlier that the bombers wouldn't stop bombing the province the person originally wanted (might have been another thread)? MOST PREPARATORY ATTACKS WERE AGAINST POSITIONS, BRIDGES, AND LINES OF COMMUNICATION. Certainly these attacks damaged the units IN those fortifications, and I've granted that to WarDog, but that CAN'T BE MODELED IN THIS GAME BECAUSE OF THE MECHANICAL LIMITATIONS OF THE ENGINE. Any attacks following were divided between directed attacks on positions on the beach that the men on the ground were having trouble with or interdicting reinforcements moving to relieve the beaches at Normandy.

Now, do you LISTEN to a word anyone else says, or are you just of the "air sucks, and I'll maintain it to the day I die" school?
 
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mld0806

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Interesting paper I found on the web concerning air interdiction, and quite justifies the broad based nature of the area combat system. You can read the whole thing here, but I'll take a few paragraphs out of it that are especially poigniant, I think:

Because the construction of an AI campaign appears to be straightforward, many people are tempted to meddle in the planning. A number of individuals want to have their hands on the air power throttle--from senior government leaders concerned about the impact of target selection on world opinion to supported surface commanders who feel that they will benefit if they are running the show. The conduct of the campaign requires the expertise and constant attention of both the commander and staff of the air component. Whether the decision to conduct an AI campaign comes directly from the theater CINC, the ACC, or as a request from one of the surface component commanders, the ACC should have responsibility for the mission. Air interdiction is a classic case for the use of mission-oriented command and control, sometimes called mission order tactics.5 This concept of command and control (see table), which stems from German military tradition as far back as Helmuth von Moltke, is designed to give the greatest freedom to the person who knows the situation and emphasizes initiative at the lowest level. It thereby takes advantage of what the US military prides itself on--the initiative of the individual soldier, sailor, or airman.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tenets of Mission-Oriented Command and Control

The superior

determines the objectives to be achieved and to this end assigns a clearly defined mission.

ensures that the forces, resources, and the authority required to accomplish the mission are available to the subordinate.

lays down details only to the extent necessary for coordination within a broad scope. These details usually apply to the interaction with such forces and resources not subordinate to the person executing the mission or not immediately available to him.

The subordinate

has extensive latitude in the way he executes the mission. He can use his own initiative to develop his operation plan and determine the necessary details. He has full discretion and freedom of action.
remains--whatever he may do--committed to the substance of his mission and the concept of operations of the higher level of command. In carrying out his operation he never forgets the goals his superior is trying to attain. The Germans would say: "The mission is sacred to him."
combine obedience with thinking in broader terms and a willingness to assume responsibility.
Source: German Military Thinking: Selected Papers on German Theory and Doctrine, Art of War Colloquium (Carlisle Barracks, Pa.: US Army War College, May 1983), 95-96.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This very well justifies the area based mission selection of the air forces, as well as the prioritization given to active combats. Mission based, the interdiction campaign would attempt to influence the Theater Commander's (read: player's) goals, which in our case are to defeat the enemy military and advance on strategic objectives, as is best determined by the Air Commanders (read: the air AI).

Also being mission based, the AI will zero in on active combat provinces and provide the air support needed while the forces are in combat.

This presents a limitation of the AI, admittedly, and is why I always suggest that if you want support in combat, launch your aircraft after combat is engaged. The AI has no way of knowing that you will be launching an attack at said specific province, and indeed in accordance with this can be said to know the forces at it's disposal and how to employ them to greatest effect against the enemy in support of the Theater Commander's goals. The overall goal is not the taking of one province, but the conquest of a nation and a defeat of an enemy's entire military machine. However, the air AI will recognize the need to support active ground operations and put priority on those operations. That being said, many times C3I is seen as the priority target, even in today's military, which might explain the increased priority of bombardment against HQs.

The air interdiction campaign delays, disrupts, diverts, or destroys enemy forces.6 It achieves one or more of these effects by conducting operations against a number of possible targets or target systems, including enemy combat units; transportation networks; command, control, and communications networks; combat supplies; or a combination of them. The specific form of an air interdiction campaign must be derived from the theater CINC's objectives, taking into consideration enemy threats and the opportunities for friendly action.7

If the air AI sees an area, and decides that the enemy threat is in reinforcement and in preventing continued operations after initial breakthrough, then the units behind the front line might be chosen directly for attack rather than front line units which are opposed by a force that can defeat them. I'm not saying this is the way it works, but if an air commander overall is given a strategic plan of "We are going to move out from here to take Hamburg", then he will look not only to the forces directly opposing friendly forces, but at those in the line of advance toward Hamburg and those in the area who might reinforce the front line. Weakening of those forces would serve the Theater CINC's objectives, sometimes moreso than the forces at the front.

The theater CINC's objectives for an interdiction campaign should be broad enough to permit the ACC latitude in meeting them. The CINC should identify these objectives in terms of desired outcomes rather than targets to be attacked or sorties to be flown. Although it may be easier to list targets or detail sorties, presenting the objectives in such terms cripples the planning process and results in a less effective overall air effort.8

So, saying, "Attack right here" is counterproductive.

Not only must ACC's know theater objectives but also they must know the objectives of the surface commanders so that they can provide them the best possible support and help them exploit the results of the AI campaign. Once the objectives are known, the air planners outline the various ways they can be achieved. An attack on bridges and road defiles may be possible, but--as our experience in Vietnam taught us--it may be far more effective to lay mines in harbors and attack docks. The issue is not one of hitting bridges or docks but of finding the best way to achieve the objectives, in view of the existing situation. Attacking supplies in dumps may be the answer, but attacking command and control nets may be equally effective. Selection of target systems should be coordinated with the surface component commanders to ensure that destruction of these targets fulfills land and naval objectives. When reviewing potential targets, however, the air component commander must also consider the threat each one represents.

Now, this paragraph talks about ports, bridges and everything else, which in the game are separate from air interdiciton missions. However the point is quite well made. The subordinate must recognize the threat and operate accordingly, not only in it's threat to the operational goals, but it's threat in disabling the ability of the interdiction campaign to continue effectively. While attacking the front line province might be a desirable goal in preparation for an attack, it isn't if your assets are crippled for advances following the initial attack. Hence the AI's casualty to damage analysis proves a quite effective tool to model air doctrine.

Air interdiction not only assists a surface component commander by reducing the enemy's ability to reinforce and maneuver, but also it helps the commander and subordinates maneuver to defeat enemy forces. For example, a land-force commander, performing at what the Army calls the operational level of war, fights battles of maneuver (fire and movement). In planning and fighting the campaign, the commander needs the cooperation of air power. That cooperation could take the form of counterair operations, air interdiction, close air support, air reconnaissance, or tactical airlift. When a particular scheme of maneuver requires air interdiction, both air and land forces must be closely coordinated. Diversion of air power or the delay of Army defense suppression or unit movements will disrupt the overall effort and put the success of the undertaking at risk. Any changes in air interdiction must be closely worked out with the land commander. Similarly, any changes in the land commander's scheme of maneuver must be coordinated with the air commander.

This again justifies the prioritization of combat, and reinforces the inability of the AI to read our minds. When we talk of manuver on this scale, we talk of within a province. As the AI can't read the minds of us or our land commanders, it cannot attack a province without this coordination, reflected in prioritizing for units on the move. This does also, however, prove another inability of the AI system in HOI2, and that is the ability to think on the fly and rapidly reevaluate a situation. Again why I suggest launching aircraft after combat has begun is that this allows the targeting AI to pick it's target fresh, instead of trying to change targeting on the fly. The air AI might have locked onto a mission objective that it will try and complete, regardless of the changed situation. I could wish it were otherwise, but the way the AI works and scripts is set up in this manner. With combat being over so quickly at times, it might be over before the AI has hit it's "reevaluation" timing. Sucks, but what can you do?

For example, in early World War II when the Allies fought with limited resources, centralized control with decentralized execution was essential for successful operations. Although these assets were capable of doing a variety of missions, priorities had to be set. Granted, the speed and range of air power gave the commander flexibility in deciding where and when to use it. But if air assets were committed in penny packets to meet the needs of many parties, they accomplished little, and air strength was quickly dissipated. The same situation obtains today. To try to operate an air interdiction campaign by parceling out air assets to various surface commanders means that sufficient forces and resources necessary to do the job will not be available. In effect, the principles of mass and economy of force will be violated.

This can be read as "Directing the air force to attack as specific province in preparation of one attack".

In sum, air interdiction must be conducted as an integrated campaign by a single commander who has the tools and authority to accomplish the mission. The ideal candidate for conducting AI is the air component commander because this officer commands or controls most of the applicable assets and has the information to make timely decisions. The ACC should be the coordinating authority for the overall interdiction effort in the theater and must always keep in mind the objectives assigned by the theater CINC. Mission-oriented command and control is fully applicable to air interdiction, and not until it is rigorously applied will we be able to gain the maximum benefit from our efforts.

This again emphasies the importance of the direct command of the air force being in the hands of the one trained to use it most effectively. However, as I've admitted, the AI is a bit slow on the uptake at times, and as such needs a little hand holding. However, allowing an AI to handle the specifics of an air interdiction campaign is quite fitting.

This paper was written in 1989, but draws upon historical factors since the days of WWII, however the principles of air interdiction were formulating then and applied as nodded to in this paper.

Now, many will point out that CAS aircraft shouldn't be limited by this. Note that this paper is NOT about the Interdiction or Ground Attack MISSION in the game, those are simply two methods of attack. The overall conduct of the campaign is in the application of a combined group of missiosn. Ground Attack is simply saying, "The goal is to lower enemy strength on the ground". Interdiction is simply saying, "The goal is to disrupt the enemy on the ground". Both are part of an overall Air Interdiction campaign as discussed in the paper.

The flaw, as I see it, isn't the system in game itself, nor the AI, but in the AI's inability to think quickly enough to keep up with the ever changing situation. The question is begged, though, just how much AI rethinking can be done in a game of this scale without taxing system resources to the max. Already people mention often the slowing of the game as the war progresses. How much more then would it slow if air units were reevaluating the situation every hour, airborne or on land?

The two contentions I guess are that 1) The system itself is based in sound air power theory and IS historical (as most air doctrine developed in the Luftwaffe or response to it) and 2) That the AI isnt' flawed in and of itself in terms of this ideal, but that it cannot think fast enough on it's feet to keep up with proper application of this ideal.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(39280)

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mld0806 said:
What's not historical about area operations? Let's take a P51 Mustang on Interdiction patrol, for example. No ground direction, so they're hunting for targets of opportunity. The P51 is capable of dive speeds of 500+ mph, but cruise speed was of 275 mph or 4.5 miles per minute. At this rate of speed, you can cover a province (we'll average province to province at 150 miles) in 33 minutes or so.

Now, loitering over an area is asking to be shot down, even with air superiority the Nazis still had aircraft that would get up in the air.

With a range of 1200 miles, the P-51 operating from England would have approximately 600 (and this is probably WAY short if launched from the coast and patrolling over France) miles of patrol fuel and time before having to turn for home IF it didn't burn any fuel in higher speed operation. At 275 mph, this equates to about 2 hours of patrolling, covering about 3.6 provinces worth of ground covered. Again, remaining in an area is suicidal, and passing repeatedly over the same area is deadly. With visibility on a clear day 20+ statute miles from the air, if you remained in a one province area, chances of getting spotted are pretty good. Armed for ground attack, the fighter isn't manuverable enough to combat the FW-190 or the Me-109, so air combat would want to be avoided as much as possible.

All of this means that a standard interdiction patrol by aircraft would cover at LEAST 2 provinces in area WITHOUT even a guarantee of being able to engage anything meaningful in any of those areas. If they kept in any smaller of an area for two hours, they could be caught and shot down.

Its exactly what i mean saying that some people are trying to explain the handling of air forces in terms of historical accuracy - at all costs, you happen to be one of them. It was discussed over and over so i wont bother to answer this particular post, i have my opinion on this subject (shared by others) - you have yours (shared by others too) and it wont change in near future... :( I respect you - but respect me and dont try to offend my intelligence please.
 
May 1, 2005
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HMS Enterprize said:
Its a shame it works this way considering what made german tactics so successful was a co-ordinated air attack with a ground assault. (was this not the point of dive bombers???)

air power should be powerful coz it was powerful! nations dont conduct 1000 plane raids coz they look pretty!

its soooo annoying watching planes bomb empty provinces!!


True. See the USAF. Though from an allied standpoint the argument may best be made in Ambose's Citizen Soldierds. Combined arms tactics were learned on the fly... with numerous examples of the inability... and associated frustrations... of ground troops being able to communicate directly with tanks, much less pilots. The USA has apparently understood the importance of establishing true air superiority in minutes, rather than days.... which was clearly a part of their doctrine after Vietnam.