Air Doctrine Comparison Chart

[bitmode]

The game doesn't make this part clear.

I think making it clear would upset more customers than leaving it unclear

Can I attack the enemy while not being attacked myself?

The air combat is highly abstracted and thinking in real life terms like "dogfights" is probably not helpful to understand it. Everything happens on a strategic scale; there is no simulation step where one plane "makes contact" with an enemy and they start to shoot and evade. It is closer to how divisions in a land battle are blobs of numbers facing enemy blobs of number and the numbers do a number to the other guy's numbers.

So it is possible that one of your fighter wings deals damage to an enemy wing, while said enemy wing does not deal damage. But on the strategic scale at least some enemy wings will deal damage to your fighter wing, because the enemy detection is never exactly zero.

How did you get to know this?

People have run a lot of tests and many findings have also been confirmed by reverse engineering or vice versa.

 

[Cavalry]

But what I am not sure how to test is how much of an impact that ace generation chance actually has. Aces do have a significant impact on combat (which is why I take them out when making most tests). When you have a ton of planes and wings in combat, you tend to generate a decent number of aces regardless. And there are several ways of exploiting the ace generation mechanics to spam a ton of them. And unless you have tons of wings, there is a finite number of wings that need a finite number of aces.

The Battlefield Support force a choice between +15 Air superiority mission efficicency (+15% attack, +15% defense?, +15% agility, +15% speed?) and +25% ace generate chance. The lowest Ace has +3% attack, +3% speed, +5% agility for 100 fighers.

That suggest to achieve equality, the ace branch player should use wings of 20 fighter or less, probably better at 10. With 10 plane each wing the Ace bonus will be 10 times.

 

[Kryndude]

So it is possible that one of your fighter wings deals damage to an enemy wing, while said enemy wing does not deal damage. But on the strategic scale at least some enemy wings will deal damage to your fighter wing, because the enemy detection is never exactly zero.

That solves my curiosity. Thank you again for your help.

 

[Kryndude]

Air generation chance brings me to another question, how does it work exactly? Is the small air wing spam still valid strategy to maximize ace generation now that planes are automatically assigned to combats regardless of the size of air wings?

Here are the defines for creating and losing an Ace:


ACE_DEATH_CHANCE_BASE = 0.003, -- Base chance % for ace pilot die when an airplane is shot down in the Ace wing.
ACE_DEATH_CHANCE_PLANES_MULT = 0.001, -- The more airplanes was lost in a single airplanes (more bloody it was) the higher chance of Ace to die.
ACE_EARN_CHANCE_BASE = 0.003, -- Base chance % for ace pilot to be created. Happens only when successfully kill airplane/ship or damage the buildings.
ACE_EARN_CHANCE_PLANES_MULT = 0.001, -- The more airplanes the wing shots the higher chance of earning Ace.


Based on this, it appears that large wings will have a higher chance earning an Ace, because larger wings [presumably] shoot down more airplanes.

Also, aces in small wings have a higher chance of dying, assuming that smaller wings lose more airplanes (?)

But, if larger wings are made up of inferior airplanes, they might not generate as many aces. (less kills)

Vice versa, aces in small wings have a lower chance of dying, if the smaller wings have superior aircraft (less deaths?)

According to this it seems we get a roll per every plane/ship killed and building bombed, but what does that have to do with air wing size?

 

[bitmode]

According to this it seems we get a roll per every plane/ship killed and building bombed, but what does that have to do with air wing size?

There is just one roll, which is the base plus the number of planes times the multiplier. Most wings (even larger ones) hardly make three kills per sortie, so the base chance significantly contributes to and often dominates the probability. This is why small wings are optimal for farming aces.

Similar logic applies for keeping aces alive. If the wing loses any plane, the base chance kicks in (plus the multiplier times lost planes). With the base chance being relatively high, avoiding sorties with losses is again optimal -> small wings.

 

[myzael]

There is just one roll, which is the base plus the number of planes times the multiplier. Most wings (even larger ones) hardly make three kills per sortie, so the base chance significantly contributes to and often dominates the probability. This is why small wings are optimal for farming aces.

Similar logic applies for keeping aces alive. If the wing loses any plane, the base chance kicks in (plus the multiplier times lost planes). With the base chance being relatively high, avoiding sorties with losses is again optimal -> small wings.

So if I am reading this right, to remove the ace farming exploit, you remove the base chance completely?

 

[Kryndude]

avoiding sorties with losses is again optimal -> small wings.

Aren't smaller wings more prone to losing planes?

 

[Cavalry]

Aren't smaller wings more prone to losing planes?

I think not. And the chance to gain or lose Ace is not depend on big or small wings, except small wings has more open slot for new Aces.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Smaller wings create a lot less air XP.

I think I read somewhere that a wing size of 100 is the sweet spot for air XP gain. But not sure.

 

[Kryndude]

I think not. And the chance to gain or lose Ace is not depend on big or small wings, except small wings has more open slot for new Aces.

I wouldn't think you need to have open slots to get aces otherwise if you play as the game intends you to play you'll barely get any.

 

[Cavalry]

More than that, I presume:

If a wing already have an Ace, its planes will not generate new ace, but only have the possibility of an Ace die.
If a wing doesn't have an Ace yet, it get a chance to get a new Ace when it kill, but no chance to lose an Ace if this wing lose some plane.

So small wings will have much bigger chance to get new Ace if there is already some ace in big wings. If you have 1000 plane and put an ace in a wing of 10, then you still have 990 planes killing to get a new ace. If you use big wings of 200 and get an ace, you will have only 800 planes left to get new ace chance.

 

[Simon_9732495]

More than that, I presume:

If a wing already have an Ace, its planes will not generate new ace, but only have the possibility of an Ace die.
If a wing doesn't have an Ace yet, it get a chance to get a new Ace when it kill, but no chance to lose an Ace if this wing lose some plane.

So small wings will have much bigger chance to get new Ace if there is already some ace in big wings. If you have 1000 plane and put an ace in a wing of 10, then you still have 990 planes killing to get a new ace. If you use big wings of 200 and get an ace, you will have only 800 planes left to get new ace chance.

It also seemed to me that you don't get new aces if you have unassigned aces. (I noticed in one game not getting aces after i unassigend some. When I assigned them again [to wings safe at home] the aces came in again. But that wasn't a long test with high n so I'm not sure. Could have been conincidence.)

And wasn't there an "unassign" buttons for aces at some version of the game? (Unaassign now = create wing, asssign, disband wing)

 

[bitmode]

If a wing already have an Ace, its planes will not generate new ace, but only have the possibility of an Ace die.

It also seemed to me that you don't get new aces if you have unassigned aces. (I noticed in one game not getting aces after i unassigend some. When I assigned them again [to wings safe at home] the aces came in again. But that wasn't a long test with high n so I'm not sure. Could have been conincidence.)

As far as I can see, the chance to earn an ace depends neither on the presence of an ace, nor whether there are unassigned aces. Having an ace increase the effectiveness of a wing should make it even more likely to generate another ace.

 

[Simon_9732495]

As far as I can see, the chance to earn an ace depends neither on the presence of an ace, nor whether there are unassigned aces. Having an ace increase the effectiveness of a wing should make it even more likely to generate another ace.

Thank you!

Where would an ace appear, that was created in a wing that already has an ace?

 

[myzael]

And wasn't there an "unassign" buttons for aces at some version of the game? (Unaassign now = create wing, asssign, disband wing)

Right click on the ace icon does that.

 

[Harin]

Thank you!

Where would an ace appear, that was created in a wing that already has an ace?

The new ace would show up in the ace list. The only way I know to access it is to go to an air wing that has no ace, click on the spade icon, and the list opens up. The unassigned aces will be at the top for you to assign to wings.

 

[Forster]

You know, I never have really paid attention to the ace mechanics. What exactly is the benefit of having aces? Does having smaller wings and numerous aces provide any benefit?

 

[Kryndude]

You know, I never have really paid attention to the ace mechanics. What exactly is the benefit of having aces? Does having smaller wings and numerous aces provide any benefit?

Air combat has a chance of generating aces. An air wing may be assigned up to one ace only.

Skill Level	Chance	Fighter Ace	Strategic Bomber Ace	CAS, TAC, or Naval Ace
"Good"	0.9	+3% Air Attack +3% Speed +5% Agility	+5% Bomb Targeting +3% Range	+5% Naval Targeting +3% Ground Bomb Targeting +5% Agility
"Unique"	0.4	+6% Air Attack +5% Speed +10% Agility	+10% Bomb Targeting +6% Range	+10% Naval Targeting +5% Ground Bomb Targeting +10% Agility
"Genius"	0.05	+10% Air Attack +8% Speed +15% Agility	+15% Bomb Targeting +10% Range	+15% Naval Targeting +8% Ground Bomb Targeting +15% Agility

The effects are scaled inversely by the size of the wing relative to 100 planes, to a maximum of 10x at 10 planes.

from https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Air_warfare#Aces

You also get a bit of war support and lose some if your ace dies.

 

[Forster]

Thanks.

 

[Harin]

Can pilots get promoted through the three levels? I seem to get messages saying an ace was promoted, but I cannot find the ace. I suspect a current ace got promoted in those times, but I can never be sure.