Air Doctrine Comparison Chart

[HugsAndSnuggles]

But then if you search forum threads, you can read comments claiming that it does #1.

I would not trust forum posts over ingame tooltip, unless they link some relevant defines with explanations or something along those lines.
As I understand it, #1 would be "(close) air support mission efficiency".
"Ground support" - is a modifier to your troops attack value; you can see and check it during combat, when CAS are active.

So, what does mission efficiency do? Former? Latter? Both?

It's, actually, simple (as simple as it can be when you name two completely different things using, basically, the same term).
"Mission efficiency" influences amount of planes that can participate.
"XXX mission efficiency", supposedly, boosts plane stats, while it carries out XXX mission.

 

[bitmode]

This is unrelated, but I've found this discrepancy on the same wiki page
So, what does mission efficiency do? Former? Latter? Both?

I added a paragraph to the wiki to hopefully better distinguish these things, but basically what @HugsAndSnuggles said.

 

[Kryndude]

It's, actually, simple (as simple as it can be when you name two completely different things using, basically, the same term).
"Mission efficiency" influences amount of planes that can participate.
"XXX mission efficiency", supposedly, boosts plane stats, while it carries out XXX mission.

I'm sorry, but it's not simple when the devs name so many things so similarly and some times give two different modifiers the same names or give two different names for virtually the same thing. Does that mean 'air superiority mission efficiency' buffs fighter stats and not increase the number of fighters that participate in the mission?

Also, does 'ground support' buff only attack or both attack and defense? It's confusing because in the game land combat tooltip it's listed as 'air support'. What's the cap for this thing? I know 'air superiority' has a base cap of 30 or 35 percent, but I can't find anything about 'air support' cap.

Excuse me if I sound offensive, I just have a lot of questions.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

I'm sorry, but it's not simple when the devs name so many things so similarly and some times give two different modifiers the same name or give two different names for virtually the same thing.

It's PDS. More often than not, you can't even tell which modifiers are multiplicative and which ones are additive, not to mention edge cases when some of those modifiers are not being applied (like that soft attack bonus from SF doctrine and artillery); weird naming is just an icing

Does that mean 'air superiority mission efficiency' buffs fighter stats and not increase the number of fighters that participate in the mission?

Yeah, that's what it means. Former is what doctrines buff; latter is, mostly, a function of weather, range and region size - completely different things, even if both can achieve somewhat similar result.

 

[Secret Master]

IIRC @Secret Master prefers OI. I'm curious why!

It's based on older tests I've done in the past. I reran them today.

OI and SD seem to be roughly even in terms of fighter versus fighter combat, assuming same exact 1940 planes, same designer, no ministers, fully exercised wings, and taking aces out of the equation.

Like, we're talking this close in terms of losses with 4000 fighters on each side.

862 to 870 is close enough to be just RNG noise.

But what I am not sure how to test is how much of an impact that ace generation chance actually has. Aces do have a significant impact on combat (which is why I take them out when making most tests). When you have a ton of planes and wings in combat, you tend to generate a decent number of aces regardless. And there are several ways of exploiting the ace generation mechanics to spam a ton of them. And unless you have tons of wings, there is a finite number of wings that need a finite number of aces.

Of course, SD has many other merits outside of fighter versus fighter combat, so it's value in terms of the overall air war, versus merely air to air combat, is higher.

So, it seems like SD is the better choice, since OI doesn't provide a clear advantage in air to air combat.

but it got nerfed in some fashion.

Does it even do anything now?

 

[Kryndude]

It's based on older tests I've done in the past. I reran them today.

OI and SD seem to be roughly even in terms of fighter versus fighter combat, assuming same exact 1940 planes, same designer, no ministers, fully exercised wings, and taking aces out of the equation.

Like, we're talking this close in terms of losses with 4000 fighters on each side.

View attachment 582364


862 to 870 is close enough to be just RNG noise.

But what I am not sure how to test is how much of an impact that ace generation chance actually has. Aces do have a significant impact on combat (which is why I take them out when making most tests). When you have a ton of planes and wings in combat, you tend to generate a decent number of aces regardless. And there are several ways of exploiting the ace generation mechanics to spam a ton of them. And unless you have tons of wings, there is a finite number of wings that need a finite number of aces.

Of course, SD has many other merits outside of fighter versus fighter combat, so it's value in terms of the overall air war, versus merely air to air combat, is higher.

So, it seems like SD is the better choice, since OI doesn't provide a clear advantage in air to air combat.

How come both sides have 78% detection? OI is said to be better because of detection advantage but it doesn't seem to be represented in your screenshot.

 

[Kryndude]

It's PDS. More often than not, you can't even tell which modifiers are multiplicative and which ones are additive, not to mention edge cases when some of those modifiers are not being applied (like that soft attack bonus from SF doctrine and artillery); weird naming is just an icing
Yeah, that's what it means. Former is what doctrines buff; latter is, mostly, a function of weather, range and region size - completely different things, even if both can achieve somewhat similar result.

So let me get this straight.

• Mission Efficiency: depends on coverage, airbase capacity, supply, and weather. Affects number of planes active among total assigned.
• XXX Mission Efficiency: affects performance of planes when carrying out XXX mission. Multiplicative modifier to every stat?
• Ground Support: equivalent of 'air support' in land battle tooltip. Buffs unit attack and defense. Multiplicative? Cap unknown?
• Air superiority: refers to the air superiority that we commonly think of, but also a name for air doctrine effect that increases air superiority cap.
• As air doctrine, air superiority increases cap but ground support does not.
• Whether Escort Efficiency does anything is currently unknown.
• Strategic Bombing: game tooltip says "modifies effectiveness of aircraft on strategic bombing mission." Does this buff only damage inflicted on buildings or does it buff overall stats of the plane including agility, etc?

One thing I've realized as I'm writing this is that the game doesn't have a dogfight window that tells you how many planes engaged in a battle, which makes it difficult to assess the effects of detection.

 

[Major Malfunction]

What is the difference between Air Superiority and Air Superiority mission efficiency?

 

[myzael]

How come both sides have 78% detection? OI is said to be better because of detection advantage but it doesn't seem to be represented in your screenshot.

If you have enough detection to detect all enemy planes, anything above that doesn't help. I'd bet that's the case in @Secret Master's test.

 

[Secret Master]

How come both sides have 78% detection? OI is said to be better because of detection advantage but it doesn't seem to be represented in your screenshot.

The weather sucks, and it is at night.

Both sides have multiple level 4 RADAR and enough planes to get plenty of detection, but even tier 4 RADARs and 4000 planes doesn't give 100% detection at night during a thunderstorm.

(It is worth testing detection from doctrines at some point, but I don't value it highly. Number of planes and RADAR matter more when detecting planes.)

 

[Kryndude]

Well, but regardless of whether detection bonus is useful, OI should have higher detection if all other variables are equal. But don't mind me, it's been great help already.

 

[Kryndude]

I added a paragraph to the wiki to hopefully better distinguish these things, but basically what @HugsAndSnuggles said.

Thank you for your work, it's much more clear now. But this section of wiki seems to be in need of an update since it confuses XXX mission efficiency with mission efficiency.

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

What is the difference between Air Superiority and Air Superiority mission efficiency?

If you're asking about modifiers, former is the one that reduces enemy defence (as a result of active air wings having higher air superiority "score" than the enemy in a given region), more specifically - it raises cap that enemy defence can be reduced by (not sure about specifics).
Latter simply buffs stats of planes running air superiority mission.


Or, if you prefer: enemy ground forces get Air Superiority debuff when you achieve Air Superiority by having higher Air Superiority score by having fighters run Air Superiority mission, which benefits from Air Superiority Mission Efficiency because it buffs stats of fighters running Air Superisrity mission

See? Mission Efficency is far from being worst offender when it comes to HOI4 terminology

 

[Kryndude]

Wiki says up to three times the number of enemy planes can engage in a dogfight. When it also says that air detection is needed to fully utilize one's air forces, I think it means when you're outnumbering the enemy. So detection itself doesn't give any bonus that directly boosts combat ability, but if you're outnumbering the enemy you need to be able to detect planes to be able to fully utilize that numeric advantage... is I think what the wiki is trying to say. Just guessing here.

 

[bitmode]

But this section of wiki seems to be in need of an update since it confuses XXX mission efficiency with mission efficiency.

I would just remove it. Most lines only rephrase the modifier into a sentence and then point elsewhere. Might as well just link to the other pages directly.

Whether Escort Efficiency does anything is currently unknown.

It really does nothing right now. You can try modding the "Fighter Escorts" technology to provide a much higher value of Escort Efficiency and you'll see no difference in performance.

Well, but regardless of whether detection bonus is useful, OI should have higher detection if all other variables are equal. But don't mind me, it's been great help already.

The detection from planes is capped at 80% from 3000 effective planes (DETECT_CHANCE_FROM_AIRCRAFTS_EFFECTIVE_COUNT, DETECT_CHANCE_FROM_AIRCRAFTS), so the 4000 fighters in the screenshot max out those values regardless of chosen doctrine.

 

[Fulmen]

Does it even do anything now

Honestly no idea. I played most of my hours in MP in 2016-17, came back a few times for a few weeks since but have barely touched the game since May 2019, besides a few runs in SP that I always tend to quit around 1939-40. So my knowledge on the game has faded somewhat (though much of the meta remains the same).

I remember we talked about the Escort Efficiency modifier in one of your test threads back 1-2 years ago, I think you concluded that it didn't seem to do much (anymore?)...? Or at least didn't impact air combat in the way I described it having impacted in the past (and I still remember those games, they were being played on the Speed5 TS with some very good players).

EDIT:

It really does nothing right now. You can try modding the "Fighter Escorts" technology to provide a much higher value of Escort Efficiency and you'll see no difference in performance.

Well that answers that.

 

[Secret Master]

Well, but regardless of whether detection bonus is useful, OI should have higher detection if all other variables are equal. But don't mind me, it's been great help already.

I could be wrong, but it might stack modifiers to detection up to the cap, but then apply negative weather and night modifiers separately.

So, you could be capped out on detection, but then the weather subtracts from that, not from your actual detection.

I'd have to check, though. It could just not be working.

 

[Cavalry]

Wiki says up to three times the number of enemy planes can engage in a dogfight. When it also says that air detection is needed to fully utilize one's air forces, I think it means when you're outnumbering the enemy.

You will need detection even if you are outnumberred. In HOI4 the enemy find you doesnt mean you find enemy.

 

[Cavalry]

IIRC @Secret Master prefers OI. I'm curious why!

I think some patch ago OI has these "+20% fighter agility". Now only +10%.

 

[Kryndude]

In HOI4 the enemy find you doesnt mean you find enemy.

The game doesn't make this part clear. Can I attack the enemy while not being attacked myself? How did you get to know this?