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wagnerleung0079

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The really successful CAS in WW2 and also today dont stand out at speed.

The Ju87 Stuka, IL2 and even A10 are in no way the faster planes in there time. The are very slow.
Cause you need time to locate your target and then aim and lay down fire on them. Only blast over the area will reduce the chance of being hit but u dont hit a shit either .
Although the equation was about the probability of a plane getting hit by ground AA but not how well a CAS can hit anything; Firstly A10 is super fast for manual aim AA gun; Secondly, being slow and having a high loss rate is the reason why both Ju87 and IL2 were being replaced with faster planes like Fw190 and Su-7(1955) when the situation is available. If agility is really the determining factor of CAS not getting hit like the Naval Anti-Air equation in the game why did USA use P-47 as CAS? They should use Triplane in WWI to do CAS in WWII
 
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Eisscrat

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Although the equation was about the probability of a plane getting hit by ground AA but not how well a CAS can hit anything; Firstly A10 is super fast for manual aim AA gun;

The A10 flys only ~700Km/h
The F15 makes up to Mach 2,5 and at cruising speed ~900km/h.

So the A10 is very slow compared to other aircraft in its time.


Secondly, being slow and having a high loss rate is the reason why both Ju87 and IL2 were being replaced with faster planes like Fw190 and Su-7(1955) when the situation is available. If agility is really the determining factor of CAS not getting hit like the Naval Anti-Air equation in the game why did USA use P-47 as CAS?

The Ju87 was build till mid 1944 in great numbers
Summe55951935752
VersionJunkersWFGSummeBauzeit
A
192​
70​
262​
Juli 1937 – September 1938
B-1
311​
386​
697​
September 1938 – Mai 1940
B-2
56​
169​
225​
Februar 1940 – Oktober 1940
R-1
105​
105​
Januar 1940 – Mai 1940
R-2
472​
472​
Juni 1940 – Juli 1941
R-4
144​
144​
Mai 1941 – Oktober 1941
D-1
592​
592​
August 1941 – Juli 1942
D-3
1559​
1559​
Mai 1942 – November 1943
D-5
1488​
1488​
Mai 1943 – September 1944
G-2
208​
208​
Dezember 1943 – Juli 1944
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87


The Ju87 could not operate if the enemy has the airsuperiority cause it cant escape fighters.
The FW190 was a great adition to the squadrons. The FW attack first cause they are faster and then provide cover to the Ju87s. Lot of german aces were in Kampfgeschwader (CAS-squadrons) and shot down many enemy fighters protecting the Ju87s.

The P47 and also the P40 were used as CAS because the dont do well in there forst role ans fighters and so used as CAS dont waste them.


They should use Triplane in WWI to do CAS in WWII

I know you want to do a joke but that what Germany did.
A Biplanes as CAS and it was very successful and liked by the crews. It continued to see front-line service until 1944, only to be withdrawn due to a lack of serviceable airframes and spare parts (production ended in 1940).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_123
 

wagnerleung0079

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This is irrelevant to the game mechanic. It just represents the historical approach of different nations regarding CAS. Bring a modern CAS into a WWII CAS discussion is already very out of the context.
The A10 flys only ~700Km/h
The F15 makes up to Mach 2,5 and at cruising speed ~900km/h.

So the A10 is very slow compared to other aircraft in its time.
It doesn't matter, what the equation is considering is plane against Ground manually AA, not against enemy planes. But everything has an optimum range. USA thinks F15 and other jet fighter are too fast for CAS to aim, but WWII CAS is too slow to survive.
Here is the question. Why USA chose A-10 instead of P-47 as the Modern CAS? P-47 is more agile than A-10.

The Ju87 was build till mid 1944 in great numbers
VersionJunkersWFGSummeBauzeit
Summe55951935752
A
192​
70​
262​
Juli 1937 – September 1938
B-1
311​
386​
697​
September 1938 – Mai 1940
B-2
56​
169​
225​
Februar 1940 – Oktober 1940
R-1
105​
105​
Januar 1940 – Mai 1940
R-2
472​
472​
Juni 1940 – Juli 1941
R-4
144​
144​
Mai 1941 – Oktober 1941
D-1
592​
592​
August 1941 – Juli 1942
D-3
1559​
1559​
Mai 1942 – November 1943
D-5
1488​
1488​
Mai 1943 – September 1944
G-2
208​
208​
Dezember 1943 – Juli 1944
Source: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87


The Ju87 could not operate if the enemy has the airsuperiority cause it cant escape fighters.
The FW190 was a great adition to the squadrons. The FW attack first cause they are faster and then provide cover to the Ju87s. Lot of german aces were in Kampfgeschwader (CAS-squadrons) and shot down many enemy fighters protecting the Ju87s.
The production of Fw190 F was started at March 1944, three months before the end of Ju87 production. That was a very ordinary phase-in phase-out procedure for me.

The P47 and also the P40 were used as CAS because the dont do well in there forst role ans fighters and so used as CAS dont waste them.
Why didn't USA just ended their production and use A-31, a dedicated CAS, for CAS instead? Faster figther-bomber was just what USA preferred in WWII.

I know you want to do a joke but that what Germany did.
A Biplanes as CAS and it was very successful and liked by the crews. It continued to see front-line service until 1944, only to be withdrawn due to a lack of serviceable airframes and spare parts (production ended in 1940).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_123
It is not a joke , if it was so good why German ended its production in 1940 in the first place.
 
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Harin

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The really successful CAS in WW2 and also today dont stand out at speed.

The Ju87 Stuka, IL2 and even A10 are in no way the faster planes in there time. The are very slow.
Cause you need time to locate your target and then aim and lay down fire on them. Only blast over the area will reduce the chance of being hit but u dont hit a shit either .

You are very correct. Those planes were slow for their time. They also could not operate and survive where there was strong AA, which is the norm on the battle front. The Stuka and IL2 (and Allied CAS) most often had to operate outside the range of that concentrated AA and generally in the immediate rear area. The A-10 was expected to survive only a few weeks in a European war, but at the time there was no other option. They were to be deliberately sacrificed to buy time until American REFORGER units could arrive. Their mission was to destroy as many enemy armored vehicles as possible in the short time they were going to survive. It is why the US military has tried repeatedly to get rid of the A-10. They cannot survive and today there is an alternative when facing peer powers. Today CAS can stay out of range of most AA and drop accurate fire.

The Germans enjoyed the advantage of being first so they could fly slow moving targets like the Stuka over undefended areas and wreck havoc. They were run out of the combat area soon enough. So were the Russian CAS, when faced with opposition, and the Allies in Africa.

It was in Africa that the Allies saw their CAS bombers pushed back to altitudes by enemy AA that prevented them from being generally effective. A new field manual and general understanding among the Allies was established and a three step process to CAS was founded.
  1. Find and destroy enemy air where ever it may be found. Achieve air superiority.
  2. Interdict enemy units and supplies moving to the front, before they are dispersed in the battle area.
  3. Finally, attack enemy ground units in the battle area.
In the meantime they began replacing their slow bombers on the front with fighters to conduct CAS. Even then, attacking front line troops was the last thing they wanted to do, unless their was air superiority and the enemy was on the back foot with reduced AA capability. During Operation Cobra, lead tanks in US columns had direct contact with P-47 pilots flying over head. There was almost no enemy AA or fighter opposition, so the P-47s could loiter, recon the road ahead, and attack targets directly in the path of the armored columns. This would not be possible without the direct contact radios, of course, or if the enemy AA was present. This was 1944 and some of the first examples of decent front line CAS. It was still only possible, because enemy resistance to CAS was almost depleted.

I found an article called Help From Above, that describes this process. WW2 starts on page 32. I realize that it is to much to read, but it makes it clear that CAS just was not working for the Allies, due to enemy AA, fighters, and the general technology and doctrinal challenges facing any army of the period.
 
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