Air ace life spans

[Orlunu]

Germans credited a shared victory to only one pilot, while the French credited full victory to all participants. British, Finnish and US air forces credited fractional shares of aerial victories, resulting in fractions, such as 11½, which might be for example 10 aircraft and three shares with the second pilot. Some U.S. commands also credited aircraft destroyed on the ground. The Soviets counted only solo kills, while group kills were counted separately, as did the Japanese. Probable kills are usually left out of the list.

Here it says that - "Luftwaffe continued the tradition of "One Pilot, One Kill".

It depends on what you mean. The Abschuss (killing blow) was only awarded to one pilot, as this was used for intelligence purposes and so on to track the war stats. The pilots, however, were given awards and so on on a victory point system, and could get points for a killing blow, a final destruction, or a separation. The number of points awarded for each of these also depended on what was killed, in what circumstances, with what help, and so on. So, for accounting how many planes were brought down they used an accurate (probably the most accurate) kill system; for awarding ace status, medals and so on, they used an even more abstracted system than most.

Germany fought and took down how many 2nd rate airforces before the majors got really involved AND got airforces up to speed? Poland, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, perhaps France could be included..

The Luftwaffe got trashed over the Netherlands. I think Poland did pretty well against them too, not so sure about the others.

 

[olm]

Seems that the top +200 aces/pilots came from the Axis and most from Germany, why?

1. They flew longer periods/more sorties.
2. They flew more on friendly territory, meaning that getting shot down or crashing was less likely to end their career as POW or drowned in Pacific.
3. Early war they had solid technological and training edge over many of their enemies.
4. Late war, then Luftwaffe was getting thoroughly outnumbered, its fighter pilots were far more likely to meet potential targets then allied fighter pilots.
5. They did not fall behind in technological race like happened to Japanese.
6. Kills were sometimes intentionally left for shining ace like HJ Marseille to take, while others in the unit merely supported the star.

 

[Irsich]

Germans credited a shared victory to only one pilot, while the French credited full victory to all participants.

Where do you read about the french system? Because i remember reading the German system was the most restrictive but the french and the italian one were just second to them with necessity of ground witness to be credited a kill.

One thingh to pounder about the numbers of kill is the pool of ennemy aircraft you can draw from. Except at the beginning of the war i think the german air force face a much greater ennemy than her own number on the eastern as on the western front.
Each german pilot as much more "job" to do and so much more opportunity than his counterpart in the RAF USAAF or VVF.

 

[Gort11]

Is it just me or are Air Aces just as likely to be killed off as any other pilot?

We can't possibly answer this question without following the non-ace pilots, who aren't tracked by the game.

 

[Orlunu]

We can't possibly answer this question without following the non-ace pilots, who aren't tracked by the game.

Why can't we just take a large sample of battles?

Play [x] air battles all with one ace, keep record of how many planes and how many aces you lose, keep record of the number of normal pilots to aces, compare the deaths per pilot per sortie.

 

[Sic Domine]

I'm afraid once you get a lot of planes, aces will pop up and die so often nobody will pay attention to them. It should be a percentage, like only x% of your army are allowed to be aces, and those aces die rather seldomly. An ace that gets wounded is out of the fight for 6 months, or whatever. Few aces died of battle.

 

[Gort11]

Few aces died of battle.

Do you have a list of the causes of death of aces?

 

[Loke]

Olm, I agree to some extent.
German top aces because of training edge, tactics and that they flew longer periods.

 

[Sic Domine]

Do you have a list of the causes of death of aces?

Yeah it's quite readily available. There are loaaaaads of books on this.

 

[Gort11]

Yeah it's quite readily available. There are loaaaaads of books on this.

Do you have a reference? It sounds interesting.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Ultimately, the list of German aces with kill scores in excess of 100 planes actually underscores what was fatally wrong with the Luftwaffe, which is their utter failure to actually utilize these aces talent in the general air force system.

A good example is the famous American ace: USN Jimmy Thach. Thach's main claim to fame isn't that he was just an ace but that he developed what he called the "beam defense position," and what everyone else called "the Thach weave," to allow the slower, less maneuverable Wildcats to fight the Zero on an even footing. It's a rare pilot who gets a combat maneuver named after himself, but Thach deserved it. The "weave" was genius, and involved two planes flying abeam, or side by side and a fair distance apart. Whenever an enemy went for one of them, both planes would turn towards each other. This resulted in the pursuing enemy being dragged across the guns of the wingman. At the end of the maneuver the two planes would once again be flying side by side, ready to execute the weave again in the opposite direction. It capitalized on both the robust nature of the American planes, and their excellent deflection shooting training and gunsights.

Thach used it for the first time in the Battle of Midway, which allowed him and his wingman to survive when attacked by a large portion of the Japanese CAP, which also was part of the reason they were so badly out of position when the dive bombers showed up. Once the entire USN began using this tactic the Japanese started having a very hard time of it indeed, and USN pilots came out of the Guadalcanal campaign with a near even exchange rate with the vaunted Zero.

On top of that, Thach was himself a damn good pilot, and an excellent shot. At Midway he was personally responsible for shooting down the Hiryu's air group commander, Juichi Tomonaga while defending the Yorktown. Tomonaga lead his squadron of "Kate" torpedo bombers in on a perfect torpedo run, when Thach sliced down through his own flak and flamed Tomonaga with a high deflection shot, causing his torpedo to miss. He would claim six kills in combat over the Pacific before being assigned to a desk. There, he developed the "big blue blanket," system for defeating the Kamikazes through a layered defensive posture. The blanket was highly effective, and greatly reduced the damage done by Kamikazes.

So while pilots like Marseille, Barkhorn, or Hartmann may have personally shot down over a hundred planes, a tactical genius like Thach could make thousands of other pilots better able to shoot down thousands of planes. Thus, Thach's impact on air combat was thus much more far reaching and he was ultimately far more valuable to his nation and his armed service when employed training new pilots in his methods than he would have been as just another ace on the front lines. The same goes for their British and (to a lesser extent) Soviet counterparts.

 

[jalapen0]

The Luftwaffe got trashed over the Netherlands. I think Poland did pretty well against them too, not so sure about the others.

Did some research and you are 100% correct on both accounts. Hats off to you good sir.

 

[Sic Domine]

Do you have a reference? It sounds interesting.

There are four books I would recommend. One is by a guy called Cajus Bekker, his Books 'Luftwaffe War Diaries' and 'Angriffshöhe 4000', the former book being the better one.
Then there is Ulf Balke, 'Der Luftkrieg in Europa' , two books, one from 39 - 41 and then from 41 - 45. This one is the best because it goes through the various Years basically day by day, and mentions what happens, this includes Aces dying and attaining Ace status. Probably the most informative book on this topic I have read. He even goes through some Air wings and mentions exactly on which day they lost which machines, and mentions the serial number of the machine lost.

 

[amalric de g.]

Ultimately, the list of German aces with kill scores in excess of 100 planes actually underscores what was fatally wrong with the Luftwaffe, which is their utter failure to actually utilize these aces talent in the general air force system.

A good example is the famous American ace: USN Jimmy Thach. Thach's main claim to fame isn't that he was just an ace but that he developed what he called the "beam defense position," and what everyone else called "the Thach weave," to allow the slower, less maneuverable Wildcats to fight the Zero on an even footing. It's a rare pilot who gets a combat maneuver named after himself, but Thach deserved it. The "weave" was genius, and involved two planes flying abeam, or side by side and a fair distance apart. Whenever an enemy went for one of them, both planes would turn towards each other. This resulted in the pursuing enemy being dragged across the guns of the wingman. At the end of the maneuver the two planes would once again be flying side by side, ready to execute the weave again in the opposite direction. It capitalized on both the robust nature of the American planes, and their excellent deflection shooting training and gunsights.



Thach used it for the first time in the Battle of Midway, which allowed him and his wingman to survive when attacked by a large portion of the Japanese CAP, which also was part of the reason they were so badly out of position when the dive bombers showed up. Once the entire USN began using this tactic the Japanese started having a very hard time of it indeed, and USN pilots came out of the Guadalcanal campaign with a near even exchange rate with the vaunted Zero.

On top of that, Thach was himself a damn good pilot, and an excellent shot. At Midway he was personally responsible for shooting down the Hiryu's air group commander, Juichi Tomonaga while defending the Yorktown. Tomonaga lead his squadron of "Kate" torpedo bombers in on a perfect torpedo run, when Thach sliced down through his own flak and flamed Tomonaga with a high deflection shot, causing his torpedo to miss. He would claim six kills in combat over the Pacific before being assigned to a desk. There, he developed the "big blue blanket," system for defeating the Kamikazes through a layered defensive posture. The blanket was highly effective, and greatly reduced the damage done by Kamikazes.

So while pilots like Marseille, Barkhorn, or Hartmann may have personally shot down over a hundred planes, a tactical genius like Thach could make thousands of other pilots better able to shoot down thousands of planes. Thus, Thach's impact on air combat was thus much more far reaching and he was ultimately far more valuable to his nation and his armed service when employed training new pilots in his methods than he would have been as just another ace on the front lines. The same goes for their British and (to a lesser extent) Soviet counterparts.

Sure only the US and UK boys are the best. OMG

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Sure only the US and UK boys are the best. OMG

It wasn't the boys... or to be more accurate, it wasn't just the boys. It was also the system within which those boys operated. It's why the US, UK, and Soviet air forces ultimately became the largest and most powerful in the world while the Luftwaffe was sent careening head long into collapse. The Germans certainly did have an advantage in aircraft quality and tactics for much of the early war, which allowed them to mature a solid core of very experienced veterans. But then they comprehensively failed to make use of those veterans talents to keep the system improving. So they stagnated while their enemies first caught up and then surpassed them.

All the major air forces (and several of the minor ones) had highly skilled pilots, even if they never had the chance to rack up the insane German kill tallies: the Japanese because they were flying fragile (if speedy) deathraps and coupled that with a suicidal combat ethic, and the Allies because they rotated their top pilots out of combat so as to make use of their talent to benefit the rest of the air force.

 

[Orlunu]

Ultimately, the list of German aces with kill scores in excess of 100 planes actually underscores what was fatally wrong with the Luftwaffe, which is their utter failure to actually utilize these aces talent in the general air force system.

But there's nothing systematic about that at all. That's literally just "this guy thought of this great manoeuvre". Manoeuvres thought up by Japanese aces got taught by their air forces as standard, too, it's just that moves like, say, the Hineri-Komi, weren't as brutally effective as the nearly unique Thatch Weave.

 

[Gort11]

But there's nothing systematic about that at all. That's literally just "this guy thought of this great manoeuvre". Manoeuvres thought up by Japanese aces got taught by their air forces as standard, too, it's just that moves like, say, the Hineri-Komi, weren't as brutally effective as the nearly unique Thatch Weave.

The systemic part comes in where the Americans brought their aces out of the cockpit to train the new pilots and work on doctrine instead of leaving them in the cockpit until they died, at which point their experience is lost.

John Thach is a good example, since he was taken out of combat duty after becoming an ace, and was therefore able to train new pilots in the tactic he invented, as well as developing new tactics (IE: The Big Blue Blanket).

If he'd instead have continued flying missions, he might well have been killed without being able to pass on his combat-tested techniques and come up with new ones, or might just have been so invested in flying missions and managing his own wingmates to seriously concentrate on the development and spreading of his own military theories.

 

[amalric de g.]

It wasn't the boys... or to be more accurate, it wasn't just the boys. It was also the system within which those boys operated. It's why the US, UK, and Soviet air forces ultimately became the largest and most powerful in the world while the Luftwaffe was sent careening head long into collapse. The Germans certainly did have an advantage in aircraft quality and tactics for much of the early war, which allowed them to mature a solid core of very experienced veterans. But then they comprehensively failed to make use of those veterans talents to keep the system improving. So they stagnated while their enemies first caught up and then surpassed them.

All the major air forces (and several of the minor ones) had highly skilled pilots, even if they never had the chance to rack up the insane German kill tallies: the Japanese because they were flying fragile (if speedy) deathraps and coupled that with a suicidal combat ethic, and the Allies because they rotated their top pilots out of combat so as to make use of their talent to benefit the rest of the air force.

There is your wonder.

Production numbers:
UK 133.000
US 329.000
SU 162.000
FR 5.000

G 126.000
J 90.000
I/H/R 10.000

You mix cause and effect. As i wrote before the german aces teached the neewbies in the squadrons. But thats not the point, the Axis had no chance against the Allies, thats the point.
1. Fuel shortages
2. Production numbers
3. Idiotic Airminister for germany
4. No 100 octane fuel
and so on.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

The systemic part comes in where the Americans brought their aces out of the cockpit to train the new pilots and work on doctrine instead of leaving them in the cockpit until they died, at which point their experience is lost.

John Thach is a good example, since he was taken out of combat duty after becoming an ace, and was therefore able to train new pilots in the tactic he invented, as well as developing new tactics (IE: The Big Blue Blanket).

If he'd instead have continued flying missions, he might well have been killed without being able to pass on his combat-tested techniques and come up with new ones, or might just have been so invested in flying missions and managing his own wingmates to seriously concentrate on the development and spreading of his own military theories.

Precisely.

As i wrote before the german aces teached the neewbies in the squadrons.

Aces occasionally, when they could, take a moment out of their busy schedule* to give some pointers to a new pilot is not remotely the same nor as effective as those aces being sent back home as instructors in a systematic pilot program. German combat pilots simply flew combat missions until they won the war or died.

*Especially for German aces, who were forced to fly more sorties in the same amount of time than allied countries.

But thats not the point, the Axis had no chance against the Allies, thats the point.
1. Fuel shortages
2. Production numbers
3. Idiotic Airminister for germany
4. No 100 octane fuel
and so on.

The turning point against the Luftwaffe occurred long before the fuel shortages crippled their combat operations and the enemies numerical advantage became crushing. During 1943 there are several instances where they managed to muster roughly equal number of aircraft to their enemies (like at Kursk, for example) and still lost. The reasons for these defeats were not because the Germans were just facing superior numbers, but by 1943 were also facing superior quality on top of it.

 

[kosmoface]

It'd be a cool feature to occasionally have the ace parachute to safety, and if he makes it back to his territory you receive a morale/public opinion boost. If he's captured alive, the enemy parades him through Moscow...er I mean, their capital, receiving the same boost.

Wonderful idea. MIA pilots that come back.