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Voshkod

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I really hope that non-played major powers will have some decent AI, or can be turned off entirely. You can't always get seven players together, and you might need to have the computer play Turkey or England. Or you should have the option to shut Turkey and England off and make them impassable.

I hope this version of Diplomacy is worthy of the name.

First post with content, by the way.
 

e-stab

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Voshkod said:
I really hope that non-played major powers will have some decent AI, or can be turned off entirely. You can't always get seven players together, and you might need to have the computer play Turkey or England. Or you should have the option to shut Turkey and England off and make them impassable.

I hope this version of Diplomacy is worthy of the name.

First post with content, by the way.
Oh please, not the AI subject NOW... :p
 

Adam B.

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Never has there ever been produced an AI that could master or equal a medicore player in a game that is more complex then a boardgame. But I am confident that Paradox will spend a lot of time on the subject. ;)
 

jacob-Lundgren

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i would say a focus more on making the ai a bit random as opposed to capable might be good, since something unexpected but not done so well is more likely to throw a human off then something expected done slightly better.

just my opinion

ps doing this at school, mouse has no scrolling wheel, tis most annoying
 

JRaup

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Well, the AI has been the death of every previous pc version of the game so far. I kinda like J-L's idea of making the Ai a bit more "random," rather than "competent." The unexpected is always the one factor in Diplomacy you can count on. It will also depend on how many powers get included. My guess is that there will be several additional minor powers included as playable, so there will be more opportunities for things to go unexpectedly.
 

Gray_Lensman

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The problem with designing a good AI, is that PC games need to be designed around the AI from the very start of the design stage. This is very hard to do, so most game designers plug on the AI after the main design is near completion (or pretty far along). The only software company that I know of that actually came close to doing this was SSG (Strategic Studies Group).
 

WhiteHojo

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Saippuakivikaup said:
I say we have a good chance for a decent AI this time.

I mean:
-The game is easy, just a variant from a boardgame(all rules etc. already ready!)
-No research required
-No events necessary


Have you played Diplomacy before? (not an insult just wondering)
 

Voshkod

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WhiteHojo said:
Have you played Diplomacy before? (not an insult just wondering)

Programming a good chess AI may be simple. Diplomacy is more like chess then it is like HOI or EU2. Chess with seven sides, three (or four) starting pieces a side, an irregular board, etc., etc.

I'll be happy with acceptable AI that makes a computer-controlled Italy a vague threat in a six player game. Or England and Turkey in a five-player game.
 

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Voshkod said:
Programming a good chess AI may be simple. Diplomacy is more like chess then it is like HOI or EU2. Chess with seven sides, three (or four) starting pieces a side, an irregular board, etc., etc.

I'll be happy with acceptable AI that makes a computer-controlled Italy a vague threat in a six player game. Or England and Turkey in a five-player game.

The difficulty in designing an AI for Diplomacy is not in making one that can handle the moves (very simple) but in making one that can imitate a human player in how it decides when/where/how those moves should be made... to put it simply yet not clearly it is difficult to design an AI that will be able to put the diplomacy in a game of Diplomacy
 

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Saippuakivikaup said:
Yes I have.

ok. So image an average game of diplomacy and all the thoughts/plans/schemes/promises/ploys/lies/deceptions/etc each player contemplates that goes into a typical mid game turn and then imagine trying to simulate that acurately in an AI format... I don't view that as easy to do
 

unmerged(28147)

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jacob-Lundgren said:
i would say a focus more on making the ai a bit random as opposed to capable might be good, since something unexpected but not done so well is more likely to throw a human off then something expected done slightly better.

just my opinion

ps doing this at school, mouse has no scrolling wheel, tis most annoying

Well when dealing with diplomatic stuff a random AI could throw the wrench in a human players works with one single diplomatic deal with another country. Lets say for an example, that just after the assassination of Franz Ferdinand there was a coup by the cousin of the Tsar. Lets say this cousin was more friendly towards Germany and refused to aid Serbia. If that had happened(With Russia being played by an AI) then any human players on the Entente side would be helpless to save Serbia, and would have to face the Germans and Austrians without the added pressure of an Eastern front from the get go. With the extra manpower available from not having a eastern front Germany could more easily roll into/through France.
 

unmerged(2402)

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Maybe it's me, but isn't the point of Diplomacy the human-to-human interactions. The trust you create before that final moment of fatal backstabbing. The alliances, the bribes.

I think generating an AI that can make the moves and plan basic strategy will not be too impossible, given Paradox's skills on past games, but unless they have an AI that mimics human behaviour, I am struggling to see how an AI will properly replicate what makes Diplomacy the game you play with people you want to make your ex-friends. ;)
 

Director

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SSG certainly did some outstanding games with great play by the AI. One way they accomplished this (in the Battlefront series and Russia, particularly) was by reducing the options available to the human player. For example, you could order a Battlefront division to take or defend an objective, but you could not deploy the division's component units. 'Carriers at War' is simply a terrific game with a viciously capable AI. I've been handed my head many a time.

The difficulty in incorporating randomness is that it makes the computer player untrustworthy. In a game where failing to support a single army can literally decide a war - or the game - a player who promises support and doesn't deliver it will not soon be forgiven.

Far better would be creating different AI behaviors by player characteristics such as loyalty to agreements, tendency to reveal information to other players, strategic goals (such as Russia opting for a northern versus a southern strategy) and the like. Some of these could be 'preset' so you could play against historic characters, and otherwise they might be randomly generated.

This would give a human player a chance to observe what the computer players say and do, forming his opinions of their 'character' as you do with human players.
 
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I would also suggest that the game should have an event system, whereby, in single player mode, a player picks a country, and then all events are geared from that perspective.

With an easy, intuitive event system, many gamers would be able to write up events to make the game more difficult (and/or to cover loop-holes). These events would help the AI.

For SP all events and the game system should be predicated on the player choosing one particular country to play.

Thus, 7 countries - then 7 individual event systems.

These would be improved and enlarged by the modding community, similar to CORE...
 

unmerged(34098)

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The Federalist said:
I would also suggest that the game should have an event system, whereby, in single player mode, a player picks a country, and then all events are geared from that perspective.

With an easy, intuitive event system, many gamers would be able to write up events to make the game more difficult (and/or to cover loop-holes). These events would help the AI.

For SP all events and the game system should be predicated on the player choosing one particular country to play.

Thus, 7 countries - then 7 individual event systems.

These would be improved and enlarged by the modding community, similar to CORE...

Events are wholly unnecessary. Diplomacy is primarily about players interacting with each other in an attempt to improve their own situations. Events can be manipulated by the player to cause certain reactions from the computer, but doing so will put the game on rails, like the patterns of ghosts in the original Pac-Man. Make the AI more able to weigh its options on when it should attack and where, when it should ally and with whom.
 

Tamas

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I think many people here haven't grasped the idea of Diplomacy, the boardgame: an extremely easy set of rules, to give a framework for human interaction which would eventually decide who win the game.
If I was Paradox I would just simply copy that without caring much for expanding the system (it would take away it's purpose, really), or trying in vain to create a competent AI.
 
Feb 28, 2001
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lazboy-general said:
Events are wholly unnecessary. Diplomacy is primarily about players interacting with each other in an attempt to improve their own situations. Events can be manipulated by the player to cause certain reactions from the computer, but doing so will put the game on rails, like the patterns of ghosts in the original Pac-Man. Make the AI more able to weigh its options on when it should attack and where, when it should ally and with whom.

You are referring to MP - and you would be correct.

However, I am talking about SP.

And perhaps I was unclear about what I meant by "Events".

The event editor for Diplomacy would not be about "historical" events, ala EU2 or HoI2. This would hamstring the AI along a prescribed line of action. And I don't like this idea.

Rather, the event editor would be more along the lines of that in Civ2 MGE.

That is, this event editor would incorporate an "IF, THEN" system.

For example:

In SP, if I'm playing as Britain and I ally with France, and then later backstab France, then an event could fire which would state: "IF Britain backstabs its ally France, THEN France will break the alliance, and seek alliance with Britain's enemy".

The above is over-simplified, but I think you see what I mean.

With only 7 countries in the game, a lot of these types of events could be written in those instances when the player selects a specific country to play.

I also like the idea that each country could have a "personality" leading it, each having certain quirks, predispositions, emotions, temperment, etc, which could incorporate a certain random element.

I reject the idea that a challenging SP game cannot be made. The game system itself needs to come with the proper editors and modding tools.

Strategic Command 2 is actually incorporating this type of event system into the game. The first for a wargame (why did it take so long?!). This will dramatically improve the performance of the AI, and will up the ante in game difficulty and challenge.

As for Civ2 MGE, few people are aware that this game can actually generate random scenarios based on a single scenario.
:eek:
 
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Jan 13, 2005
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The problem with AI, is that it may know a few openings, but it does not know how to apply them.

The hedgehog is a great and safe opening when you know no one likes you, but if, say, you befriend Italy, that F Tri-Ven isn't going to help you.
 

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Sep 2, 2004
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I played my first game of Diplomacy in 1969, and have played only sporadically since then, some FTF, some via judge. I have played two PC versions of the game and found neither worthwhile. I will assume for this post that the standard boardgame rules will apply to at least one way of playing Paradox' version of the game, and thus will comment about how to make the AI work. I am not a programmer, but took some classes way back when (including some that required punchcards), and have written an Othello (Reversi) game with an AI opponent for my own amusement, and some others. Likewise, I am familiar with game theory, having read a bit and having had one course graduate business course that spent some time on it, but am not a mathematician or economist. I have monitored people (generally with a programming background) that try to write and run financial trading systems, which is a form of AI. Thats enough of the disclaimers.

When I have written or thought about how AI could work in the past, I try to describe what I would do in playing the game, and distill those down to behavior rules, what is usually called an 'expert system'. That is what I would suggest to Paradox, that they download masses of diplomacy games played through on-line judges, analyze those, with the help of experienced players, and use that to help build up their expert system database. After that they would have to build in a couple of necessary twists.

There are two parts to playing Diplomacy, which I will label 'tactics' and 'diplomacy'. If you are running a power already up to 17 supply centers, facing two separated opponents, then diplomacy probably won't matter, if you can find a set of tactics that will force a win (gaining that last supply center) or will have a good probability of a win, as there are numerous situations where it is probabilistic, i.e. an opponent can defensively support either one of two supply centers, and you can attack either but not both with two, so if either or both players randomize, then there would be a 50% chance of capturing a supply center. If the situation elsewhere is static, and this situation persists, i.e. neither the defender nor attacker can bring reinforcements, then the attacker would eventually win by attacking the unsupported supply center. Therefore, the AI should first analyze the board to see if there is a forced or probablistic win tactically, and if so, not worry about diplomacy much that turn. This is a large, complex problem. If there are 36 units on the board each having an average of five possible moves, then there are 14,551,915,228,366,900,000,000,000 possible sets of moves to consider after one spring or fall move. While many of these possible moves can be ruled out immediately, as they involve defensively supporting a unit you are moving, the number of plausible move combinations remains much higher than in chess, so the ability to follow the tree of tactical possibilities all the way out to a result could well be computationally impractical if a brute force method was applied, only paring down implausible, i.e. self-contradictory, moves. That being said, I would hope/expect that Paradox could come up with a tactical AI that would fare reasonably well in a no-press game, if not then human players would jave a tactical advantage. Some other games compensate for this by giving AI run players production or combat advantages, but that is not possible inthe standard rules of Diplomacy (other than making the one human player start as Italy). The other way to compensate for tactical AI weakness would be to have computer run powers be automatically more suspicious of human run players and be more apt to ally with other computer players. In one game "No Greater Glory", a US Civil War game, the AI was given what the player moves were, which would spoil Diplomacy, so that choice is not advisable, although the a slight chance of a 'spy' learning something occasionally could be tolerated.

I will break this off now and post later regarding some ideas about the diplomacy part of the AI. Hope this helped.
 
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