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TheDarkMaster

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Since I'm doing some observer games for testing balance changes, I noticed a few AIs managing to reform their pagan faiths and got curious as to what they're likely to pick from the options. Here's what I found out.

Most of the natures have only a few religions that have any chance of choosing them, with the least likely being Peaceful, as only a Bon AI will ever pick it. Next after that is the reformer's personality traits, but only really on the natures and leadership. Most of the doctrine choices are completely random, aside from the religion specific doctrine which is very likely to be chosen no matter what. This is a more detailed breakdown:


Nature
The single most important factor in what they AI picks is what their base pagan religion was. In the majority of cases, they will pick one of the religions that fits with that particular religion, unless their personality seriously swings it in another direction. The two most common doctrines are warmongering and unyielding. Germanics (76%), Tengri (76%), and Aztecs (79%) usually picking warmongering, while Romuvas (76%) and Suomenuskos (76%) go for unyielding.

The others are a little more interesting. Slavics still prefer unyeilding (56%), but have a fair chance of picking cosmopolitan (28%) as well. Hellenics have an equal base chance of going for warmongering (33%) or cosmopolitan (33%), with a slightly reduced chance of picking proselytizing (27%). Zuns can go for warmongering (36%), proselytizing (29%), or dogmatic (29%). Africans have the largest selection, having high base chances for unyielding (31%), proselytizing (25%), dogmatic (25%), and cosmopolitan (16%).

Lastly we have Bons, who have far more modifiers than the other religions. They're the only ones that have a reasonable chance of picking peaceful (49%), everyone else has a less than 1% chance. Otherwise odds are they pick unyielding (49%). Unlike the others, they have almost no chance of picking something else.


For the non-Bons, the off natures chances are 0.3-0.8% for peaceful, 3-8% for warmongering, 4-8% for unyielding, 5-6% for proselytizing, 3-6% for dogmatic, and 2-4% for cosmopolitan. The one exception is Aztecs who've got a minuscule chance of picking unyielding, even lower than their chance of picking peaceful.

Personalities can have a significant effect on these chances, with the exception of peaceful. No personality traits will affect an AI's base chance to pick that. There are only a handful of traits that will affect things. Cynical being the most important, affecting the odds on all 5 natures. Zealous and possessed affect 4. Lunatic, wroth, craven, patient, kind, and gregarious all affect 2 natures, and with the exception of gregarious all increase one option and decrease another. Socializer, brave, cruel, and paranoid each only affect one.

If a ruler happens to have two of the right personality traits, that can dramatically shift the odds. For example, a Suomenusco or Romuva character would normally have a 76% chance of picking unrelenting and a 6% chance of picking proselytizing, if they happened to be zealous and gregarious, that changes to 4% and 74% instead. A craven Germanic drops from 76% for warmongering to 58%, and their chance to pick unyielding rises from 8% to 29%.

Here's a detailed breakdown of the factors, note that each personality will further multiply the chance by 5 or divide by 10, it isn't just a question of if you have one or not:

  • Peaceful:
    • Bons base factor 100
    • Everyone else base factor 1
    • No personality modifiers
  • Warmongering:
    • Germanic, Hellenic, Tengri, Aztec, or Zunist base factor 100
    • Bons base factor 0.1
    • Everyone else base factor 10
    • Zealous, lunatic, possessed, and wroth x5
    • Craven, patient, and cynical /10
  • Unyielding
    • Romuva, Slavic, Suomenusko, African, and Bon base factor 100
    • Aztec base factor 0.1
    • Everyone else base factor 10
    • Craven, patient, and cynical x5
    • Zealous, lunatic, possessed /10
  • Proselytizing
    • Zunist, Hellenic, and Africans base factor 80.
    • Bons base factor of 0.08.
    • Everyone else base factor of 8.
    • Zealous, gregarious, and socializer x5
    • Wroth, possessed, brave, and cynical /10
  • Dogmatic
    • Zunist and Africans base factor 80
    • Bons base factor 0.08
    • Everyone else base factor 8
    • Possessed and cruel x5
    • Kind and cynical /10
  • Cosmopolitan
    • African and Slavic base factor 50
    • Hellenic base factor 100
    • Everyone else base factor 5
    • Gregarious, kind, cynical x5
    • Paranoid and zealous /10

Doctrine
This one is pretty boring. Seven of the eighteen universal doctrines have no modifiers on them at all. The only personality factors are to make otherwise unlikely doctrines have normal chances to be picked. None of the generic options ever has more than a half again chance of being picked as any other doctrine.
  • Divine Marriage is a tenth as likely to be picked unless Zun, but their unique doctrine already covers that.
  • Syncretism is half as likely to be picked by Aztecs, Romuvas, and Suomenuskos.
  • Astrology is very unlikely to be taken by Bons, Tengri, or Suomenuskos.
  • Agnatic clans is very unlikely to be picked by women and a tenth as likely if the ruler's heir is female.
  • Equality will rarely be picked except by reformers with the just trait or ambitious women.
  • Enatic clans is extremely unlikely except if the reformer is a women who's either a lunatic, possessed, or ambitious, but is otherwise equally likely as all the other doctrines.
  • Bloodthristy Gods is a tenth as likely if the reformer isn't cruel or an impaler.
  • Daring has a half again chance as normal if the reformer is Germanic or Romuva, in the first case if the ruler had the unlikely event happen where they did not pick the Germanic unique doctrine.
  • Seafaring outright cannot be picked by a reformer who doesn't have a coastal demesne province, less likely for nomadic reformers, and again Germanics and Aztecs have a half again chance of picking it if they didn't take their unique doctrines.
  • Unrelenting and animism have the same half again chance for Aztecs and Tengri.
All of the religion specific options are most likely to be taken, being fifty times as likely to be picked as normal doctrines and having no modifiers. Since there's only eighteen other doctrines that could possibly be picked, there are several that will either be unavailable due to nature or very unlikely, and the AI has two chances to hit their unique doctrine, you're looking at over a 95% chance they take the unique doctrine.


Leadership
Once again, this is mainly determined by religion. Most of the time religions have a 77% chance of picking their predefined leadership option, with an equal chance of each of the other options. Zuns and tengri are less likely than normal to pick autonomous, leaving them with 83% / 8% / 8% / 0.2%.

The only thing that personality can affect is the AI's chance of picking autonomous, which are mostly about reducing the odds they pick that option. Characters rapidly become less likely to pick it the more of these traits they have: zealous, luntic, and possessed. Just one of them makes the Bon and Africans equally likely to pick any of the leadership types, two and their normally preferred autonomous only has a 3% chance of being taken. Reformers are more likely to pick autonomous if they're cynical. However, that still can't make it more thank half as likely as their default option (59% / 29% / 6% / 6%).
  • Temporal
    • Germanic and Aztec base factor 50
    • Everyone else 5
  • Hierocratic
    • Tengri and Zunist base factor 50
    • Everyone else 5
  • Autocephalous
    • Suomenusko, Slavic, Romuva, and Hellenic base factor 50
    • Everyone else 5
  • Autonomous
    • Bon and African base factor 50
    • Zun and Tengri base factor 0.5
    • Everyone else 5
    • Cynical x5
    • Zealous, lunatic, possessed /10

Conclusion
I think I might mod some of these to make them more interesting and make the AI more likely to pick some of the unlikely options. There's very little at play and most things are going to be determined by the religion or pure random chance. I've also been working on this post for over three hours and need to go to bed.
 
Last edited:

TheDarkMaster

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Having now got together a spreadsheet that calculates the nature reformation chances based on personality traits, I think the natures are mostly good. Personality factors do significantly shift things with even just one or two relevant ones, assuming they've got something to reduce the chance of the default choice being picked. What I would like to change is to factor in a few personality traits for peaceful so it can at least be in consideration for most pagans, add in secondary default options for all the religions that lack them, and maybe make Bon a little less restrictive (only picks peaceful, unyielding, or rarely cosmopolitan).

I'm thinking peaceful should have a base factor of 5 for most religions (same as cosmopolitan), but not for Germanics, Aztec, Hellenic, or Zunist religions who have 0.1. Bon still has 100. While the new personality factors would be:

+ Peaceful: Just, erudite, content, architect, administrator, and scholar
- Peaceful: Cynical, zealous, arbitrary, wroth, cruel, and strategist

+ Warmongering: Strategist
- Warmongering: Just, architect, and socializer

+ Unyielding: Stubborn
- Unyielding: Ambitious

+ Proselytizing: Erudite, ambitious, and Theologian
- Proselytizing: Stubborn

+ Dogmatic: Paranoid, arbitrary, and shy
- Dogmatic: Content and master schemer

+ Cosmopolitan: Master schemer
- Cosmopolitan: Shy and theologian
In addition, I think it would be nifty to include a few minor modifiers based on sympathy for other religions and education. These have a smaller affect than the above and vanilla personality traits. However, I'm unsure as to what nature Zoroastrianism should make more likely and Eastern religions cover radically different natures so I didn't include it.
  • Diplomatic education -> Proselytizing
  • Martial education -> Warmongering AND unyielding
  • Stewardship -> Peaceful
  • Intrigue -> Cosmopolitan
  • Learning -> Dogmatic
  • Sympathy for Christendom -> Proselytizing
  • Sympathy for Islam -> Dogmatic
  • Sympathy for Judaism -> Unyielding

Now leadership, since that's a fairly small topic. I just want to add a few more personality traits to modify them the same as natures, though not as extensively.
  • Proud, greedy, and ambitious characters are more likely to pick Temporal or Hierocratic to hoard the power for their own realms.
  • Humble, charitable, and content characters are more likely to pick Autocephalous or Autonomous to share the power around.

I'll get to the doctrines in another post, since that's a huge project with a ton of stuff to cover.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Oh, I forgot about including the secondary nature reformation options for the pagan religions that lack them. I could really use some help figuring these out if anyone has suggestions related to the actual history and practices of these people.

Germanics
  • Defaults only to warmongering.
  • Could add Proselytizing due to strong Christian influences in the region.
  • Could also include Cosmopolitan for their history of trading, colonizing, and integrating.

Tengri
  • Defaults to warmongering.
  • Could have cosmopolitan to go along with the nomadic tradition of religious tolerance.
  • Could have dogmatic due to Islamic influences.

Aztecs

  • Defaults to warmongering.
  • Currently also far less likely to pick unrelenting than normal.
  • Since they're meant to be very hostile to everyone else, dogmatic would be a good fit as an alternative option.

Romuva

  • Defaults to Unyielding.
  • As the most insular and stubborn of the pagans, dogmatic or maybe peaceful could fit as isolationist options.
  • Could also have warmongering as an option so the Romuva can potentially 'wake up' and go on a rampage in later starts.

Suomenusko

  • Defaults to Unyielding.
  • Warmongering is the only real alternative I can see, due to their isolation. Anything else is more about fun ways to play that game, rather than something the AI should be inclined towards due to traditions or influences. They just don't interact with the other religions much and cover a huge amount of ground and diverse traditions, which limits the thematics of picking anything else. Does anyone know of good reasons why they might be more inclined towards another nature?

Bon
  • Equally likely to go with peaceful or unyielding by default.
  • Can potentially have a 20, 50, or 80% chance to pick cosmopolitan with the right personality traits and socializer lifestyle.
  • None of the other options have serious chances to be picked due to extra modifiers.
  • Maybe proselytizing could be allowed, thanks to Buddhist influences?
 

Narvait

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Agreed here, will sub.
 

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Having now got together a spreadsheet that calculates the nature reformation chances based on personality traits, I think the natures are mostly good. Personality factors do significantly shift things with even just one or two relevant ones, assuming they've got something to reduce the chance of the default choice being picked. What I would like to change is to factor in a few personality traits for peaceful so it can at least be in consideration for most pagans, add in secondary default options for all the religions that lack them, and maybe make Bon a little less restrictive (only picks peaceful, unyielding, or rarely cosmopolitan).

I'm thinking peaceful should have a base factor of 5 for most religions (same as cosmopolitan), but not for Germanics, Aztec, Hellenic, or Zunist religions who have 0.1. Bon still has 100. While the new personality factors would be:

+ Peaceful: Just, erudite, content, architect, administrator, and scholar
- Peaceful: Cynical, zealous, arbitrary, wroth, cruel, and strategist

+ Warmongering: Strategist
- Warmongering: Just, architect, and socializer

+ Unyielding: Stubborn
- Unyielding: Ambitious

+ Proselytizing: Erudite, ambitious, and Theologian
- Proselytizing: Stubborn

+ Dogmatic: Paranoid, arbitrary, and shy
- Dogmatic: Content and master schemer

+ Cosmopolitan: Master schemer
- Cosmopolitan: Shy and theologian
In addition, I think it would be nifty to include a few minor modifiers based on sympathy for other religions and education. These have a smaller affect than the above and vanilla personality traits. However, I'm unsure as to what nature Zoroastrianism should make more likely and Eastern religions cover radically different natures so I didn't include it.
  • Diplomatic education -> Proselytizing
  • Martial education -> Warmongering AND unyielding
  • Stewardship -> Peaceful
  • Intrigue -> Cosmopolitan
  • Learning -> Dogmatic
  • Sympathy for Christendom -> Proselytizing
  • Sympathy for Islam -> Dogmatic
  • Sympathy for Judaism -> Unyielding

Now leadership, since that's a fairly small topic. I just want to add a few more personality traits to modify them the same as natures, though not as extensively.
  • Proud, greedy, and ambitious characters are more likely to pick Temporal or Hierocratic to hoard the power for their own realms.
  • Humble, charitable, and content characters are more likely to pick Autocephalous or Autonomous to share the power around.

I'll get to the doctrines in another post, since that's a huge project with a ton of stuff to cover.

Oh, I forgot about including the secondary nature reformation options for the pagan religions that lack them. I could really use some help figuring these out if anyone has suggestions related to the actual history and practices of these people.

Germanics
  • Defaults only to warmongering.
  • Could add Proselytizing due to strong Christian influences in the region.
  • Could also include Cosmopolitan for their history of trading, colonizing, and integrating.

Tengri
  • Defaults to warmongering.
  • Could have cosmopolitan to go along with the nomadic tradition of religious tolerance.
  • Could have dogmatic due to Islamic influences.

Aztecs

  • Defaults to warmongering.
  • Currently also far less likely to pick unrelenting than normal.
  • Since they're meant to be very hostile to everyone else, dogmatic would be a good fit as an alternative option.

Romuva

  • Defaults to Unyielding.
  • As the most insular and stubborn of the pagans, dogmatic or maybe peaceful could fit as isolationist options.
  • Could also have warmongering as an option so the Romuva can potentially 'wake up' and go on a rampage in later starts.

Suomenusko

  • Defaults to Unyielding.
  • Warmongering is the only real alternative I can see, due to their isolation. Anything else is more about fun ways to play that game, rather than something the AI should be inclined towards due to traditions or influences. They just don't interact with the other religions much and cover a huge amount of ground and diverse traditions, which limits the thematics of picking anything else. Does anyone know of good reasons why they might be more inclined towards another nature?

Bon
  • Equally likely to go with peaceful or unyielding by default.
  • Can potentially have a 20, 50, or 80% chance to pick cosmopolitan with the right personality traits and socializer lifestyle.
  • None of the other options have serious chances to be picked due to extra modifiers.
  • Maybe proselytizing could be allowed, thanks to Buddhist influences?
My sugestions:
- add gregarious, craven and maybe hedonist for "+" peaceful (jovial and cravens would avoid conflicts)
- Germanic: I'd put warmongering with low chances - viking period was quite short (in terms of germanic paganism) and 1/3 of it's time happened after christianization
- Romuva - definitely not peaceful (we're talking about guys who actively resisted christianization for 400 years); cosmopolitan? Looking on Grand Duchy of Lithuania...

What about Slavic religion? Default Unyelding with some possibilities to Warmongering (early expansion and Russian naval engagements with Byzzies) and Prozelytising (fits better than Cosmopolitan and Slavs assimilated others in their way instead blending with outsiders)?
 

TheDarkMaster

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My sugestions:
- add gregarious, craven and maybe hedonist for "+" peaceful (jovial and cravens would avoid conflicts)
- Germanic: I'd put warmongering with low chances - viking period was quite short (in terms of germanic paganism) and 1/3 of it's time happened after christianization
- Romuva - definitely not peaceful (we're talking about guys who actively resisted christianization for 400 years); cosmopolitan? Looking on Grand Duchy of Lithuania...

What about Slavic religion? Default Unyelding with some possibilities to Warmongering (early expansion and Russian naval engagements with Byzzies) and Prozelytising (fits better than Cosmopolitan and Slavs assimilated others in their way instead blending with outsiders)?
I don't want too many boosts to one particular nature and craven and gregarious already push the player towards other things. Outside of zealous and cynical, each personality trait shouldn't impact too many things. So I tried to mostly have them take away from one and push towards another.

Germanic favoring warmongering, but being less pushed towards it compared to other religions is a good idea.

Romuva, I didn't want to go for Cosmopolitan since that's what Slavic does right now (prefers unyielding, but has cosmopolitan as a second option). It's also why I wasn't including Slavic at first.