AI "Not willing to join another offensive war until...."?

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Quaade

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I remember seing in one DD (unless i imagined it :)) that you said you would try to make AI smarter to not get used by players to fight player's wars all the time. Plus one for this change.

There should also be some metrics of how much is the player involved in AI wars, ie. if player is just sitting and not helping AI should know, relations should drop and in worst case AI need to break the alliance. Metrics should be something like : number of battles joined from total number of battles, units killed and lost, AI is losing war - should be worse for the relation with a player if not helping, AI winning war should make AI forgiving for players non-involvement, distance - AI should not expect much help in trans-continental wars etc... These all could be built into Trust modifier, but it should be transparent to the player at the end of the war - like saying: "You gained/lost X trust towards AI due to: responding to call, joined battles, occupations, giving territory etc..".

agreed that it should be more dynamic, like mentioned with it being a ticking modifier instead and modified by giving claims and cores to AI, but also if the AI has any interest in this war in the line of giving cores and claims. Like having the player having a core (greater modifier) on the province AI has a core in which case it could be cool to implement a system where you could promise the AI this province. This could already be done by losing the core in order to have AI as ally, which would make me think more about losing a core to gain and ally to gain two other provinces. Having a claim should be a smaller modifier but still count towards their willingness to join.

Add the modifier "has taken core in ally war" where you take their core where you only has a claim but still have the modifier to a smaller degree when you have a core yourself.
 

Orosius

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I think it would be great to have another metric to show the AI satisfaction about your alliance, other than relation. Relation can be improved or modified by lot of things. This other metric would be used as a global modifier for CTA / Diplo vassal, etc ... and contains trust, show how helpful you was in their war, how you give them their claims in your war, etc ...

The goal is to make alliance with AI a real decision, because now you just ally all powerful neighbour and use them as attack dog to expand yourself. When they call you, you accept and litterally do nothing without any malus (even bonus in fact) in relation.
 

EHzg Johann

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Edit: Never mind, since it is already as suggested. Sorry

Wouldn't it be easier to prevent such lopsided alliances in the first place? What has France to benefit from an alliance with a human Ulm for example. Therefore the AI should be more reluctant to accept alliance proposals, if you're much weaker than them.
 
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Wizzington

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I agree with this in principle, but I hope this won't be a return to the unpredictable alliance chains there were in EU3 with the Alliance CB. There has to be some kind of limitation so that it'll still be very clear who'll end up joining a war on both sides.

Would only be for allies, not asking to join any war ever.
 
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grumphie

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how about not making it a -1000 modifier, but a smaller one that stacks instead? the AI shoudlnt be the players personal attack dog, but sometimes the wait can make little sense. for example, i called in poland into my war against pommerania as brandenburg. few years later, we beat them. i couldnt even give poland anything - they hadnt occopied anything, so i vasselised them instead. few eyars later when they were out of debt and manpwoer had recovered a bit i planned to strike against the teutonic order who were wrecked in their war against denmark. bankrupt, out of manpower. it'd been a cakewalk for poland, with lots to gain - while i wanted to take neumark, they would ahve several claims themselves they could aim to conquer against their rival.

making them less willing to join is a good thing, but it shouldnt be a hard lockout out of wars they have evrything to gain by. now if i shunned themm again, theyd get even more and more pisse doff at me for not gettign anything and them fighting all my wars, they should be more likely to just ignore you and your wars, but the hard lockout out of anything just doesnt feel to make any sense.
 

oblio-

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Darkath

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So AI ally actually gets to do some wars of its own instead of being player's/another ai's wrecking ball 24/7.

I would suggest not having this a -1000 penalty since it's not good design, IMHO, to have modifiers you can't do anything about.

A stacking -50 or -100 would be enough, you would be able to still do something about it if the AI really likes/trust you etc.
 
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Dell19

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There should also be some metrics of how much is the player involved in AI wars, ie. if player is just sitting and not helping AI should know, relations should drop and in worst case AI need to break the alliance.

Its a good idea but I think it would be really challenging to implement a fair system as for instance what happens if you get called in to a war against an OPM who is immediately defeated by your ally. Do you then get a negative relations modifier because your troops couldn't magically teleport. Also if you are Bavaria and allied with Poland who then starts a war against Russia then do you really have to help? Worse examples would be if you needed to get military access through a rival to be able to help or if the war was on another continent - Britain now hates landlocked Switzerland for not helping in the conquest of India...
 
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hashinshin

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Its a good idea but I think it would be really challenging to implement a fair system as for instance what happens if you get called in to a war against an OPM who is immediately defeated by your ally. Do you then get a negative relations modifier because your troops couldn't magically teleport. Also if you are Bavaria and allied with Poland who then starts a war against Russia then do you really have to help? Worse examples would be if you needed to get military access through a rival to be able to help or if the war was on another continent - Britain now hates landlocked Switzerland for not helping in the conquest of India...
5 years.

If you don't participate in some way in 5 years you're considered "late" and get an opinion malus.

CK2 has a war effort check that actually tracks how much you contribute to a war, I think EU4 could use something like that.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Would it also make sense for you to get a message saying, "Nation x is asking us if we can join their offensive war. Since we recently helped them in another offensive war, we can decline without penalty."

That way you still get informed when your allies go to war if you want to help them out anyway.
 
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Metz

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I agree with this in principle, but I hope this won't be a return to the unpredictable alliance chains there were in EU3 with the Alliance CB. There has to be some kind of limitation so that it'll still be very clear who'll end up joining a war on both sides.

Maybe something based on your relations with the other country.
 

Rubidium

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5 years.

If you don't participate in some way in 5 years you're considered "late" and get an opinion malus.

CK2 has a war effort check that actually tracks how much you contribute to a war, I think EU4 could use something like that.
My only concern is that sometimes you get called into wars that you can't realistically contribute to (e.g. overseas wars as a landlocked nation). The AI has it even worse, because pathfinding/AI issues can delay its participation.
 

Vanillamarine

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Why would the AI need an ally which either is not capable of helping or is not willing of helping it?

Huge opinion malus should be given if player is not using manpower to help the AI, if player nation is transfering subsidies opinion malus should be reduced but manpower needs to be the biggest concern.
 

Korashy

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While we are at it, can you remove the +100 relationship requirements for Enforce Peace? It's a a beautiful tool in theory, but almost never used, because meeting both the love requirement and your own criteria for "do I want to fight this war" almost never happens.
 

Dell19

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Why would the AI need an ally which either is not capable of helping or is not willing of helping it?

Because there are different regions... If I was Switzerland then I would help out France in a war against Austria or Spain etc but if they've started a war against some Aztec nation then its not possible to help and its a bit unfair to be penalised for that.

If it was that you had to contribute within 5 years on the same continent that you also have provinces on then I think it would work fine. So in the example above I don't have to help France against the Aztecs but I do if I have a colonial nation in America.

Also ideally the penalty would take into account whether the player was involved in a separate war.
 
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Vanillamarine

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Because there are different regions... If I was Switzerland then I would help out France in a war against Austria or Spain etc but if they've started a war against some Aztec nation then its not possible to help and its a bit unfair to be penalised for that.

If it was that you had to contribute within 5 years on the same continent that you also have provinces on then I think it would work fine. So in the example above I don't have to help France against the Aztecs but I do if I have a colonial nation in America.

If the AI goes to war with a target that its ally cannot hit the AI should not call that ally to arms, why would it? The AI should however still demand war subsidies from a close ally, regardless if that ally can provide manpower or not.
 
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yerm

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Ask to join war would make this one of the best patches ever. Add in a way to soft call to arms without the alliance breaking if refused for offensive wars and we're looking solid.

As for the cooldown, we already adjust how long a truce lasts based on war outcomes, perhaps just add a similar logic to the cooldown here? Longer war, longer wait. Larger rewards to the AI participant, larger chunk of the cooldown removed or possibly eliminated. Finally, much like forming an alliance with someone who is at war, I didn't check but if it doesn't exist yet the AI should absolutely be willing to just completely forego this malus if it WANTS to join the war in the first place. Brandenburg conquest of Pomerania, I give Poland nothing, Poland refuses to join my subsequent conquest of Magdeburg - that's perfect. If I instead try to reconquer Neumark, though, Poland should ditch their reservations and just join in.
 
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