AI more likely to give up three provinces than to accept a humiliation?

[anomanderus]

Italy has a weird obsession with Istria while ignoring South Tirol. Anyway the Italians keep adding Lombardia, Venetia and Istria in wars with Austria and Austria has no soldiers. Italy doesn't have the warscore to get those provinces but Austria gives them up anyway. I do have the warscore to humiliate Austria but Austria keeps refusing. Is the AI doing this because it thinks it can rebuild its army and get those provinces back in a few years or something? Otherwise I would think the AI would be more likely to accept a humiliation when the attacker has the necessary warscore than it would be to accept the loss of three provinces when the attacker doesn't have the necessary warscore for those provinces.

Also I don't know that paradox could actually do this but I wish if a nation was at war with two unaligned nations in two separate wars and a state that nation B wants from nation A is fully occupied by nation C then nation A shouldn't have the authority to give that land to nation B.

 

[unmerged(734083)]

Humiliate seems a little wonky at the moment. I'm playing as the Philippines and massing mostly Navy. I DoW'd Netherlands for Java, and Prussia joined in. They lost 2 naval engagements, and Prussia added "Humiliate". I took all of Java and Netherlands peaced out. Meanwhile Prussia sent two more fleets, which were both wrecked. Prussia wouldn't accept white peace, but didn't have the navy to send anything new. I just ended up waiting two years, then switching over and peacing out for them, since essentially they'd failed their wargoal.

Similar to "Occupy" goals, there should be a ticking Humiliate warscore- if the aggressor doesn't win any battles within 2 years, the defender gets a gradual score.

 

[anomanderus]

I now note that I've officially entered the BS zone in my game. Having reloaded and captured the Austrian capital I now have enough warscore to take Istria but the Austrians are rejecting my peace offer.

The Italians who don't have enough warscore to take the three provinces they want are being given the provinces they want, including Istria.

Edit: My guess for this is that the Italians have a positive income while my income is negative, hence I'll go broke eventually while the Italians can maintain their soldiers at full supplies. Somehow the Austrian AI believes therefore the coalition of Spain/France/Austria/German minors will lose against Italy but the Austrians and Greeks- who completely lack a military at this point can somehow defeat Serbia. The warscore should always be the primary factor on which the AI bases its willingness to accept a peace.

Edit 2: I switched to Austria and made them give me Istria but then Italy added Croatia to their wargoals for some reason. Is the AI actively trying to prevent me from forming Yugoslavia? Can the AI even do that kind of strategy/annoying me and making my game unreasonably complicated? Italy still has South Tirol that it could have added which is a core, why would it add Croatia?

 

[Foxl]

Edit 2: I switched to Austria and made them give me Istria but then Italy added Croatia to their wargoals for some reason. Is the AI actively trying to prevent me from forming Yugoslavia? Can the AI even do that kind of strategy/annoying me and making my game unreasonably complicated? Italy still has South Tirol that it could have added which is a core, why would it add Croatia?

More like because it could - below infamy limit and getting another boarding state seems like a pretty good deal. Because of this you might also see a conquest of Baden by France.

 

[anomanderus]

More like because it could - below infamy limit and getting another boarding state seems like a pretty good deal. Because of this you might also see a conquest of Baden by France.

That conquest of Baden would have to occur in a war between France and Prussia in which France ignored Alsace-Lorraine in favor of Baden

 

[Wizzington]

Humiliate likely costs more warscore than the provinces. AI acceptance of a peace deal is based on cost of the peace, warscore and their desire for peace... that's it.

 

[grommile]

Similar to "Occupy" goals, there should be a ticking Humiliate warscore- if the aggressor doesn't win any battles within 2 years, the defender gets a gradual score.

The 3.02 beta has that; you have to fight five battles and the battle contribution to warscore has to be in your favour.

 

[delra]

Or you could post a savegame from before the peace deal to the bug section.

 

[anomanderus]

Humiliate likely costs more warscore than the provinces. AI acceptance of a peace deal is based on cost of the peace, warscore and their desire for peace... that's it.

I had the warscore needed to humiliate Austria, Italy did not have the warscore to get the three provinces. The three provinces cost more than 70 warscore while the humiliate cost less than 15.

 

[Wizzington]

I had the warscore needed to humiliate Austria, Italy did not have the warscore to get the three provinces. The three provinces cost more than 70 warscore while the humiliate cost less than 15.

Who was warleader?

 

[unmerged(734083)]

For some reason (3.01) the "5 battles" condition is there, but the ticking score doesn't change if less than 5 have been fought. It seems like, in the Humiliate goal, the onus is on the aggressor to fulfill all the conditions...

 

[Miaow]

Who was warleader?

Based on his posts, it seems they were in two unrelated wars against Austria.

 

[Wizzington]

Based on his posts, it seems they were in two unrelated wars against Austria.

Okay well, presumably they had a higher desire for peace towards Italy for whatever reason. I really can't say why they did as they did without access to the savegame, but AI calc for peace is only based on three variables so if it wasn't warscore, it was their desire for peace.

 

[Laexio]

Okay well, presumably they had a higher desire for peace towards Italy for whatever reason. I really can't say why they did as they did without access to the savegame, but AI calc for peace is only based on three variables so if it wasn't warscore, it was their desire for peace.

how do you calculate "desire for peace"?

 

[blaidd]

Based on my own experiences with HoD, I'd guess it has to do with war exhaustion, likelihood of winning the war, and overall political situation.

For example, in my Russian game I was fighting the Ottomans and France to assist my allies Persia conquer some Ottoman territory. The war wasn't going exactly well. I could beat the French when they came into Russia and keep the Ottomans from occupying any of Persia, but that was about it. It dragged on for YEARS with neither side getting the upper hand and France flat refused to turn over the provinces or submit to my humiliation war goal.

Then Germany declared war on France and immediately they were begging me for peace and totally willing to throw the Ottomans under the bus to get it. They even accepted humiliation. I'm fairly certain I didn't have the war score to enforce all my demands because just before I'd been thinking about giving up and trying to white peace.

This is fairly logical behavior. The AI realized that it couldn't fight massive wars on two fronts and it surrendered to me so it could concentrate its forces against the bigger threat (Germany).

The OP's description of events is pretty much the same, except in his case he was the bigger threat.

In the same game, I had the Egyptians surrender 3 provinces to me before I had enough war score to demand all three of them. But they had ZERO army, over half their country was occupied by my forces, and their war exhaustion was really high, so it was entirely logical for them to surrender. I was happy the AI didn't force me to siege every province in its country before giving up.

 

[Miaow]

Based on my own experiences with HoD, I'd guess it has to do with war exhaustion, likelihood of winning the war, and overall political situation.

For example, in my Russian game I was fighting the Ottomans and France to assist my allies Persia conquer some Ottoman territory. The war wasn't going exactly well. I could beat the French when they came into Russia and keep the Ottomans from occupying any of Persia, but that was about it. It dragged on for YEARS with neither side getting the upper hand and France flat refused to turn over the provinces or submit to my humiliation war goal.

Then Germany declared war on France and immediately they were begging me for peace and totally willing to throw the Ottomans under the bus to get it. They even accepted humiliation. I'm fairly certain I didn't have the war score to enforce all my demands because just before I'd been thinking about giving up and trying to white peace.

This is fairly logical behavior. The AI realized that it couldn't fight massive wars on two fronts and it surrendered to me so it could concentrate its forces against the bigger threat (Germany).

The OP's description of events is pretty much the same, except in his case he was the bigger threat.

In the same game, I had the Egyptians surrender 3 provinces to me before I had enough war score to demand all three of them. But they had ZERO army, over half their country was occupied by my forces, and their war exhaustion was really high, so it was entirely logical for them to surrender. I was happy the AI didn't force me to siege every province in its country before giving up.

What I find odd is that the calculation does not appear to be the same when the player offers peace to the AI and when the AI evaluates whether it should offer peace.

This is easily apparent when annexing an unciv: although it's a 85% warscore peace cost, the AI will only ever accept a player-proposed peace at 100% warscore if there's an annex goal. However, the AI frequently offers to submit to the annexation at 85-90% warscore...

 

[RELee]

What I find odd is that the calculation does not appear to be the same when the player offers peace to the AI and when the AI evaluates whether it should offer peace.

It's always seemed that way to me as well, even when I was playing Vicky, Ricky and VIP. I think it's just a feature.

 

[blaidd]

although it's a 85% war score peace cost, the AI will only ever accept a player-proposed peace at 100% warscore if there's an annex goal. However, the AI frequently offers to submit to the annexation at 85-90% warscore...

I've never seen the AI agree to player proposed peace terms even when the war score cost is met if it thinks it still has a chance of winning. You seem to always need significantly more.

For example, start up a game as the Netherlands and invade Portugal for that one tiny island in Asia. War score cost = 2. But they won't surrender at 2% and probably not at 5% if they can get a decent ally like Spain.

I've found you pretty much always need several more points than the actual cost to get the AI to consider the deal if it still has a decent chance. Or, alternatively, you crush the AI so utterly that it surrenders early.

I assume this is where that 'desire for peace' modifier comes in.

 

[Miaow]

It's always seemed that way to me as well, even when I was playing Vicky, Ricky and VIP. I think it's just a feature.

Oh, I think it is too. It makes sense to a degree, since a player is better able than the AI to spot when the warscore is probably optimal for them. It's just tedious and overdone: the AI is overly stubborn vs. a player and can sometimes seem insultingly easy when negotiating with other AIs.

I've never seen the AI agree to player proposed peace terms even when the war score cost is met if it thinks it still has a chance of winning. You seem to always need significantly more.

For example, start up a game as the Netherlands and invade Portugal for that one tiny island in Asia. War score cost = 2. But they won't surrender at 2% and probably not at 5% if they can get a decent ally like Spain.

I've found you pretty much always need several more points than the actual cost to get the AI to consider the deal if it still has a decent chance. Or, alternatively, you crush the AI so utterly that it surrenders early.

I assume this is where that 'desire for peace' modifier comes in.

Oh yes, but that's a somewhat different case: at 2% you haven't really done much to them, although the ticking war score hopefully allows for modelising a situation where you take the island and they can't do anything about it, although you aren't attacking their mainland (if that goes on for years, you could realistically unilaterally declare the war over, although Portugal would continue claiming the island it would de facto be yours and accepted as such by other powers).

On the other hand, at 90% with their army destroyed, it's just a matter of time before you reach 100%. The AI recognises this and will even offer peace: it just refuses when the player proposes peace. Which shows the extra stubborness to be overdone.

 

[Wizzington]

how do you calculate "desire for peace"?

Have a look in defines, it covers most of the factors.