AI is too willing to join claimant factions

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Forblaze

Second Lieutenant
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Jan 14, 2019
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After a few generations, every playthrough of mine eventually becomes plagued with issues with claimant factions. This issue is obviously very easy to solve with executing prisoners for dread, but this strategy is also obviously overpowered and game-y. Without this strategy, the only way for me to survive a succession is to have a diplomacy focused heir and start befriending people as soon as possible. If my heir is underaged, I would really have no chance at all if I didn't execute prisoners. Looking at the game files, there don't seem to be a lot of things to prevent the AI from joining a claimant faction. Assuming the claimant is an identical faith, culture, and the proper gender for the realm as you (which is likely since they'll most likely be family), the AI only need to find 25 "join score" to decide to join the claimant faction. Crown authority 1 adds 10 points to this and crown authority 3 or 4 adds 20. After this, vassals only need to like the claimant very slightly more than you to join their faction (1.5x the difference in opinion = 1 point, so +4 opinion if you have CA3), with no regard to the status quo, risk, or military power. Considering you'll be starting off with a short reign opinion malus, this almost guarantees that your vassals will flock to the first claimant faction that pops up even if they voted for that person in an election. This seems excessive to me and I would like to see the barrier to joining a claimant faction to be somewhere closer to 100 points or, better yet, just use the same formula as the the elections.
 
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Marry your children to prominent vassals to keep them from joining factions. Other than that, have a powerful army at your beck and call if you want a strong crown authority
 
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Some more options:

1) give away gold = + opinion
2A) create titles to gain quick prestige and increase rank = + opinion
2B) give away those same titles = + opinion
3) add vassals to the council = + opinion
4) have a feast = + opinion

Many people look forward to instigating a crushable rebellion to pick up gold, prestige, prisoners, dread, and even more titles.
 
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Some more options:

1) give away gold = + opinion
2A) create titles to gain quick prestige and increase rank = + opinion
2B) give away those same titles = + opinion
3) add vassals to the council = + opinion
4) have a feast = + opinion

Many people look forward to instigating a crushable rebellion to pick up gold, prestige, prisoners, dread, and even more titles.

Depending on your religion, you can also go on pilgrimage which will give you a permanent +5 opinion. At succession I would do that after holding feast and hunt (for pushing prestige level up).
 
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The issue is more that the AI is too willing to joining claimant factions mindlessly. It's happy to be in a faction to install some random aunt as new queen, just to then turn around and demand her abdication because she's a woman, has a short ruler penalty and they still didn't get the duchy that they desire...
When deciding which claimant to support, the AI should put a higher emphasis on having a family relationship to them - that way, once they've put him/her in power, they'll be allied and can't fight against them. It should also take into account the opinion that they will have of their claimant once he takes the throne...

Another issue is that there're just to few types of factions: A dejure vassal with low crown authority really has no other option than joining a claimant faction if he's a bit unhappy. A solution to this might be to introduce more faction types, specifically designed with sources for unhappyness in mind: They could demand that you hand out your additional duchies to your vassals. If you are / your heir is of the wrong religion, they could demand conversion. They might want you to go to war for their claims. Annull the betrothal of your heir to some beautiful genius but lowborn woman. Demand to end your wars. Fire your genius councillors and replace them with your stupid vassals. Give privileges in vassal contracts.

There could be so many options. But currently its just: Okay, let's push some random claim.
 
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The issue is more that the AI is too willing to joining claimant factions mindlessly. It's happy to be in a faction to install some random aunt as new queen, just to then turn around and demand her abdication because she's a woman, has a short ruler penalty and they still didn't get the duchy that they desire...
When deciding which claimant to support, the AI should put a higher emphasis on having a family relationship to them - that way, once they've put him/her in power, they'll be allied and can't fight against them. It should also take into account the opinion that they will have of their claimant once he takes the throne...

Another issue is that there're just to few types of factions: A dejure vassal with low crown authority really has no other option than joining a claimant faction if he's a bit unhappy. A solution to this might be to introduce more faction types, specifically designed with sources for unhappyness in mind: They could demand that you hand out your additional duchies to your vassals. If you are / your heir is of the wrong religion, they could demand conversion. They might want you to go to war for their claims. Annull the betrothal of your heir to some beautiful genius but lowborn woman. Demand to end your wars. Fire your genius councillors and replace them with your stupid vassals. Give privileges in vassal contracts.

There could be so many options. But currently its just: Okay, let's push some random claim.

Thank you for replying to my actual point, which everyone else seems to have sidestepped. I think the idea of more diverse faction objectives is good, but I think at the end of the day the AI just needs to recognize the risk of treason. As it is, it's too close to just "which person do I like more" and not "Am I willing to risk my life and land to get rid of the current ruler and/or install this other person."
 
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Thank you for replying to my actual point, which everyone else seems to have sidestepped. I think the idea of more diverse faction objectives is good, but I think at the end of the day the AI just needs to recognize the risk of treason. As it is, it's too close to just "which person do I like more" and not "Am I willing to risk my life and land to get rid of the current ruler and/or install this other person."
Yeah, and it's kind of sad since there is a system of hidden AI behavioral values which are used extensively throughout the game to decide on AI actions, but it's barely used at all for factions. The only one I found is where a high level of AI greed makes them more likely to join claimant factions on their own behalf. You'd think this would be used a lot more for factions, and especially boldness should make a big difference.

Traits don't seem to be used either, except for Content characters not getting a join bonus for a claimant faction on their own behalf.

(This is only based on factions, and not on rebellions and the like.)
 
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Just to note... Regardless whether or not the AI faction system can be improved, it shouldn't be so difficult to avoid rebellions when your heir takes over. Even with a child ruler, I've easily avoided rebellions. There are numerous factors that will affect rebellions. One is how much the previous ruler was liked. If you play such that your ruler is liked by his/her vassals, then that makes it far easier during succession. If you stick to the "let's rely on dread" option with every ruler, then the vassal opinions are most likely going to be low and you're just setting yourself up for succession problems every time. It's also important to watch your heir's traits and avoid sinful traits if at all possible as those can really cause you problems during succession. Beyond the things you do before succession like those, which really aren't gamey, you can do things after succession, which also aren't gamey. Having a feast or hunt after succession wouldn't be unusual and makes a nice difference in how well you're liked. A pilgrimage after you are the ruler is also normal as it shows your devotion to the faith as ruler and shouldn't be considered gamey. These are just a few things to greatly reduce the chance of rebellion.

There is one other thing to reduce the rebellion chance, though this one can be considered gamey... you're obviously going to want to increase opinions of your vassals... don't try to influence vassals with the highest negative opinion of you. Instead, start with those who are closest to a positive opinion. You are far better off getting multiple vassals from a small negative opinion to a positive opinion than one vassal with a large negative opinion to a positive opinion and this can be done far more quickly. Granted, a positive opinion doesn't guarantee they'll leave the faction, it does increase the chances and if you're getting multiple vassals to a positive opinion, chances are that most will leave the faction, which can be enough to keep it from having enough strength to rebel. As a side note, if the vassal has a very small army, then you might skip trying to make them like you, but many small armies that drop out of the rebellion is still a good thing and can be done easily.
 
Just to note... Regardless whether or not the AI faction system can be improved, it shouldn't be so difficult to avoid rebellions when your heir takes over. Even with a child ruler, I've easily avoided rebellions. There are numerous factors that will affect rebellions. One is how much the previous ruler was liked. If you play such that your ruler is liked by his/her vassals, then that makes it far easier during succession. If you stick to the "let's rely on dread" option with every ruler, then the vassal opinions are most likely going to be low and you're just setting yourself up for succession problems every time. It's also important to watch your heir's traits and avoid sinful traits if at all possible as those can really cause you problems during succession. Beyond the things you do before succession like those, which really aren't gamey, you can do things after succession, which also aren't gamey. Having a feast or hunt after succession wouldn't be unusual and makes a nice difference in how well you're liked. A pilgrimage after you are the ruler is also normal as it shows your devotion to the faith as ruler and shouldn't be considered gamey. These are just a few things to greatly reduce the chance of rebellion.

There is one other thing to reduce the rebellion chance, though this one can be considered gamey... you're obviously going to want to increase opinions of your vassals... don't try to influence vassals with the highest negative opinion of you. Instead, start with those who are closest to a positive opinion. You are far better off getting multiple vassals from a small negative opinion to a positive opinion than one vassal with a large negative opinion to a positive opinion and this can be done far more quickly. Granted, a positive opinion doesn't guarantee they'll leave the faction, it does increase the chances and if you're getting multiple vassals to a positive opinion, chances are that most will leave the faction, which can be enough to keep it from having enough strength to rebel. As a side note, if the vassal has a very small army, then you might skip trying to make them like you, but many small armies that drop out of the rebellion is still a good thing and can be done easily.

For a claimant faction, sinful/virtuous traits and their opinion of the previous liege only matter as much as they affect opinion, and those are being weighted directly against things like short reign, rightful ruler, and powerful vassal which only affect the liege and the AI does not consider if they will gain those malices for the claimant after they're installed. The opinion window is just too small once you're at crown authority 3.
 
Yes, and as they are weighted directly against the maluses, it means that you have less negative opinion and therefore less chance they will join factions. A faction to install someone else needs the vassal to have a higher opinion of them than of you (you're right that the vassal does not consider the maluses not currently affecting their candidate even though those will obviously appear if they win). In order to significantly reduce the chance of people being in factions, you need them to like you as much or more than the person they want to put on the throne. This means that anything that increases their opinion of you will reduce the chance of siding against you.

It is pretty uncommon for me to have to deal with a faction uprising upon succession, even with a very young (under 3) child heir inheriting. If you can keep your vassals happy prior to succession and your heir isn't someone they are going to really not like, you shouldn't have too much difficulty. I've never needed to use dread to avoid a succession and only ever had a couple high dread characters just for the change of pace.

As I mentioned, my comment is unrelated to whether or not the system can be improved. Of course it can be improved. My comment was in regard to ways to limit constant rebellions without it being gamey. Your original post stated you could only avoid the problems with factions through dread or a diplomatic heir, which I've tried to show is not the only option you have available to you.
 
Some more options:

1) give away gold = + opinion
2A) create titles to gain quick prestige and increase rank = + opinion
2B) give away those same titles = + opinion
3) add vassals to the council = + opinion
4) have a feast = + opinion

Many people look forward to instigating a crushable rebellion to pick up gold, prestige, prisoners, dread, and even more titles.

I've had issues with factions filled entirely with members with positive opinions of me, is that normal?
 
I've had issues with factions filled entirely with members with positive opinions of me, is that normal?

Yes, because they don't consider if they like you or not before deciding to commit treason. I talked about the decision making process in the OP, but if you're at CA3 you can be at 95 opinion and they'll still want to overthrow you for someone at 100 opinion. I suppose they don't even need to like the claimant they're supporting more than you either, because of how factions siphon members from other factions. They'd just need to like any claimant that they would join a faction for more than you.
 
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Yeah, and it's kind of sad since there is a system of hidden AI behavioral values which are used extensively throughout the game to decide on AI actions, but it's barely used at all for factions. The only one I found is where a high level of AI greed makes them more likely to join claimant factions on their own behalf. You'd think this would be used a lot more for factions, and especially boldness should make a big difference.

Traits don't seem to be used either, except for Content characters not getting a join bonus for a claimant faction on their own behalf.

(This is only based on factions, and not on rebellions and the like.)
Note boldness matters to factions in that the game checks the effect of dread modified by boldness on their willingness to join factions. But I can definitely see and argument for it also being directly included too.

Other ones that could be interesting is honour directly affecting the AI's willingness to join factions against tyrannical rulers and vengefulness making them more likely to join faction against rulers that have slighted them.
 
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From a pure game theory point of view, it is in the vassals' interest to win claimant wars for any claimant who has no claims on their titles, since they get free hooks on the liege. Winning claimant wars is good for the vassal. If you want to avoid claimant wars, you need to give another similar way to get hooks on liege. A "I demand a hook" faction, if you will.
 
From a pure game theory point of view, it is in the vassals' interest to win claimant wars for any claimant who has no claims on their titles, since they get free hooks on the liege. Winning claimant wars is good for the vassal. If you want to avoid claimant wars, you need to give another similar way to get hooks on liege. A "I demand a hook" faction, if you will.

Obviously they'd prefer to have a hook vs not have a hook, but that isn't the choice being made. If they fail, there's a good chance they'll be stripped of their titles and executed. That's an infinitely worse outcome than not having a hook.
 
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Obviously they'd prefer to have a hook vs not have a hook, but that isn't the choice being made. If they fail, there's a good chance they'll be stripped of their titles and executed. That's an infinitely worse outcome than not having a hook.
Of course, that's why they should only start claimant wars if they have overwhelming odds. They should not YOLO claimant wars. But if they have 300% faction strength, it's in their interest to send the ultimatum.

I do agree that they enter wars which are too risky at the moment.
 
2A) create titles to gain quick prestige and increase rank = + opinion
2B) give away those same titles = + opinion

This is a very, very solid option. I don't create titles unless I need to give them away for opinion/prestige gain. I'll have a queue of 10-15 duchy titles that can be created for just that.
 
Of course, that's why they should only start claimant wars if they have overwhelming odds. They should not YOLO claimant wars. But if they have 300% faction strength, it's in their interest to send the ultimatum.

I do agree that they enter wars which are too risky at the moment.

If the entire calculation is "i'll get a hook if we win this war." then every vassal would join every claimant faction at every opportunity and maintaining a realm would be impossible. Raising the military threshold wouldn't change that.
 
If the entire calculation is "i'll get a hook if we win this war." then every vassal would join every claimant faction at every opportunity and maintaining a realm would be impossible. Raising the military threshold wouldn't change that.
That's exactly what I am saying. But the solution I propose is to give alternative, less destructive and easier ways for vassals to get hooks on their liege.