AI is still walking through forts in 1.19

[Kollatius]

Maybe someone can help explain what happened in this case - I control the forts in Mewar and Rewakantha

Vij walked into my territory by way of Baroda - why weren't they caught in Rewakantha's Zone of Control? The fort must've had a garrison, this was a few months after I took it and waited for them to come resiege it

Occupied forts don't apply ZoC

 

[Rikissa]

I never knew!

 

[Gratak]

Occupied forts don't apply ZoC

Yes they do?! I have been stopped by forts the AI conquered from a neutral party (from my view) in a completely different war.

 

[durbal]

In Rikissa's screenshot, how is the army moving from Patan to Kathiawar? The fort in Mewar should stop this.

 

[Gratak]

In Rikissa's screenshot, how is the army moving from Patan to Kathiawar? The fort in Mewar should stop this.

That's not true. This fort alone would never stop anything like that (best you could hope would be blocking Patan-Gorwal and walking throgh the fort directly). Once an army reached Patan, it would not even stop this movement in combination with a fort in Rewakantha

 

[Bridger15]

I don't understand why this stuff is still going on. It can't be that hard to make sure that when AI issues movement orders that it can actually get to where it wants to go.

Oh sure, it's not that hard. Please describe to me the rules the AI should follow using only math. I await your answer.

In Rikissa's screenshot, how is the army moving from Patan to Kathiawar? The fort in Mewar should stop this.

It is very likely the army originally moved from Kathiawar north to patan. One of the main ZOC rules is that an army can always move back to the province it entered before getting captured by the zoc.

 

[durbal]

Oh sure, it's not that hard. Please describe to me the rules the AI should follow using only math. I await your answer.

I'm guessing you're getting at the idea that computers somehow only understand math and your idea of math is just computations. That's not how programming, computers, or math work.

It should be obvious that the ZoC rules work as a logical set of rules because they already restrict the player. That's why I asked why it is supposedly so hard to make the AI follow the same rules. Performance is the only reason I can surmise.

 

[durbal]

That's not true. This fort alone would never stop anything like that (best you could hope would be blocking Patan-Gorwal and walking throgh the fort directly). Once an army reached Patan, it would not even stop this movement in combination with a fort in Rewakantha

Patan is in the ZoC of the fort in Mewar, so armies entering Patan can only go back to their original province or to the fort in Mewar. The only possibility to move to Kathiawar from Patan is if they originated in Kathiawar, but that's unlikely given what the OP said and the general layout of the provinces (Vij would have seemingly had to do a naval landing which the AI never does when it has land access).

 

[Gratak]

Patan is in the ZoC of the fort in Mewar, so armies entering Patan can only go back to their original province or to the fort in Mewar. The only possibility to move to Kathiawar from Patan is if they originated in Kathiawar, but that's unlikely given what the OP said and the general layout of the provinces (Vij would have seemingly had to do a naval landing which the AI never does when it has land access).

Have you played the game the last half year? Single forts block next to nothing in most cases. Certainly not walking away in basically any direction.

 

[durbal]

Have you played the game the last half year? Single forts block next to nothing in most cases. Certainly not walking away in basically any direction.

Yes I've played the game. 'Single forts' (whatever you mean by that) block movement because they apply a zone of control. Entering a ZoC province allows movement only toward the fort or out of the ZoC. That's the entire basis of the fort rules.

 

[Gratak]

Yes I've played the game. 'Single forts' (whatever you mean by that) block movement because they apply a zone of control. Entering a ZoC province allows movement only toward the fort or out of the ZoC. That's the entire basis of the fort rules.

But that's not what happens and also not what's supposed to happen. There has been a "shortcut"-rule since 1.15 (I think) that usually allows you to got the direct way if there is any way. And with a single fort basically any province is reachable, rendering that "single fort" utterly useless, unless placed at a narrow point. On the other hand, if you have a row of forts (max 2 province gaps), you can actually stop the enemy.

 

[durbal]

But that's not what happens and also not what's supposed to happen. There has been a "shortcut"-rule since 1.15 (I think) that usually allows you to got the direct way if there is any way. And with a single fort basically any province is reachable, rendering that "single fort" utterly useless, unless placed at a narrow point. On the other hand, if you have a row of forts (max 2 province gaps), you can actually stop the enemy.

Ah yes, the old AI shortcut rule. I thought that was eliminated in 1.19 since it allowed the AI to bypass forts. That's probably what happened in my Shirvan example as well.

If that isn't removed then it needs to be since it's allowing the AI to bypass forts even in choke points. Look at my Shirvan example -- they went from Dagestan to Shirvan back to QQ because they could get there by having to go all around the Caucasus wasteland, so instead they just walk through the fort in Shirvan rather than take the long route that they should be forced to take.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

If there are still issues with AI marching through active forts in 1.19 then I would love a savefile where this happens so we can investigate and make further fixes.

Sadly, screenshots do not help in this regard, there is too much that doesn't get shown with just a screenshot. Feel free to tag me in s

What still happens in-game is that any valid movement that goes only through owned, controlled or enemy territory (...) where forts are not supposed to exert any influence when the move commands are issued (exiled units, mothballed forts or having military acess) are carried out until the end disregarding any/all ZoC. I´ve exemplified this many times during my streams.

 

[durbal]

nm

 

[Gratak]

Ah yes, the old AI shortcut rule. I thought that was eliminated in 1.19 since it allowed the AI to bypass forts. That's probably what happened in my Shirvan example as well.

If that isn't removed then it needs to be since it's allowing the AI to bypass forts even in choke points. Look at my Shirvan example -- they went from Dagestan to Shirvan back to QQ because they could get there by having to go all around the Caucasus wasteland, so instead they just walk through the fort in Shirvan rather than take the long route that they should be forced to take.

Still not seeing what this rule is supposed to have to do with the AI. If the rule is applied for both AI and player equally it is the only way I know of to make the old fort system playable. The strict ZoC some people claim to want would be hell with the amount of forts the AI builds... Usually the reason why the AI has less problems with forts is simply because the player has less forts...

 

[durbal]

Still not seeing what this rule is supposed to have to do with the AI. If the rule is applied for both AI and player equally it is the only way I know of to make the old fort system playable. The strict ZoC some people claim to want would be hell with the amount of forts the AI builds... Usually the reason why the AI has less problems with forts is simply because the player has less forts...

It's not applied to the AI and player equally. It's only allowed for the AI. This allows the AI to bypass forts in narrows chokepoints by taking the 'shortcut' rather than the long route it's supposed to take. It's especially problematic because the AI will often do surprising things like in my Dagestan-Shirvan example and start battles where it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Gratak]

It's not applied to the AI and player equally. It's only allowed for the AI. This allows the AI to bypass forts in narrows chokepoints by taking the 'shortcut' rather than the long route it's supposed to take.

Saying that it's never applied to the player is simply not true and I really cannot understand how you can play the game without realizing this. It may be true that the AI sometimes can use shortcuts the player is not able to take and that is clearly a bug, but this does not mean that the player can never take any shortcuts.

Just start the game, start as France, delete all Forts except one in the center of France, change tag to someone else, declare war on France and check how much ZoC that one fort will really impose on your armies. Pretty sure you will hardly notice it...

 

[durbal]

Do a quick and easy test.

Enter a fort ZoC. Try to move to an adjacent province in that fort's ZoC. You are forced to move back to the original province first and then back into the ZoC. The AI doesn't have to do this.

 

[resand]

Saying that it's never applied to the player is simply not true and I really cannot understand how you can play the game without realizing this. It may be true that the AI sometimes can use shortcuts the player is not able to take and that is clearly a bug, but this does not mean that the player can never take any shortcuts.

Just start the game, start as France, delete all Forts except one in the center of France, change tag to someone else, declare war on France and check how much ZoC that one fort will really impose on your armies. Pretty sure you will hardly notice it...

With one fort in the middle of France. There's hardly any place you can't get to by just going around the fort.

 

[Gratak]

With one fort in the middle of France. There's hardly any place you can't get to by just going around the fort.

Yes. That's the point. But you will see that you can move almost freely within the ZoC because of shortcuts.