AI is a lying liar
- Thread starter Subbak
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You can, but it doesn't count for promise land by AI at all. As Prussia, I fought Poland, Lithuania, and Venice with Austria with promise land and Russia with favor (partition, I know). I gave Austria Venezia (very high war score, a single province is like 98 or something if I remember correctly) on separate peace deal with Venice and took a bunch of Greater Poland for myself afterward. Apparently Venezia wasn't counted for promise land and I broke the promise, now enjoy -1000 recently break promise land modifier.
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No, separate peace land does not count for promised land. If you gave it in the primary peace deal with Poland, it would've counted.
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AI War Leader never transfers occupations in my experience, if you wanted Savoys land then you should have occupied it so my point still holds up because as I said taking provinces from France would be twice as expensive since they were not a co-belligerent(AI never makes Co-Belligerents unless its the Emperor defending the HRE since that's done automatically) Returning Cores to the Papal States is not the same as giving you land you only had claims on.
Also did the Papacy occupy the lands they got back themselves? Because if its a Papal core then they won't give it to the war leader and they may have been called in on a promise of territory also but since they where Papal cores the AI may have decided to return them since it would be a lot cheaper than giving you high development French Lands at twice the cost which might have been more than your war participation. A province like Champagne alone would have probably cost 40-50+ War Score alone.
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This is a great way to exploit the AI. Declare on the ally of the nation you want land from, let the AI do all the fighting, take what you want from them in a separate peace deal and then peace out with the primary without taking land.
The AI won't expect any land in a white peace, but if you had done this in a single deal the AI would have gotten a massive opinion penalty.
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I hope to get on top of this situation eventually (Wiz designed and implemented the current trust system), but AI-human interaction is *very* complicated. Either way, if you have saves that reproduce clear bugs, feel free to upload them.
The AI was screwing me over in similar way in a campaign I played this weekend, so will be looking at this particular aspect shortly.
The AI was screwing me over in similar way in a campaign I played this weekend, so will be looking at this particular aspect shortly.
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err, this was clearly in patch notes.
Ai will not except land from Co belligerent nations in a war, if you offer to feed it to them in seperate peace.
AI will not feed YOU land from co belligerent nations as 'reward'.
I think this was installed to prevent player from doing seperate peace with co belligerents in a war, feeding an ally.. With the intent to destabilize them or force PU them after.
If the peace was done versus FRANCE and warleader at ONE, it might have worked.
But let me guess, the warleader AI peaced France out twice, giving you nothing? And then you got nothing at all, cause you didn't occupy any provinces in main war nation, as you didn't have it flagged as vital /strategic or you didn't have enough war contribution?
The main problem, if I understand it right, is that you can only give ALLY territory in wartarget nation, if you seperate peace the nation they JOINED for, to get the territtory THEY have.
The dev who programmed this expects all players to peace out with all cobelligerents at once, giving all allies a piece of vital land.. But who in its right mind does that? And does it even WORK? God knows i never tried to do such peace, where an ally who joined to get land, can or cannot accept land from co belligerent nations, if you 'include' it in main peace deal with enemy warleader..
Err, does the above make any sense?
1. Allies will never EVER except land from cobelligerent nations even if they flagged it as vital, and even if they join war for THAT land.
2. this works vice versa. The ai will never EVER give you land in seperate peace with cobelligerent, even if the territory is flagged as vital by YOU.
Problem is that AI isn't programmed to give you territory from cobelligerents. They will just seperate peace out thse nations and then after THAT conclude you did nothing for the war, leaving you with... nothing.
And even if warscore contribution is 'remembered', you didn't flag anything as 'vital' in the wartarget nation, hence AI gives you.. nothing.
Ai will not except land from Co belligerent nations in a war, if you offer to feed it to them in seperate peace.
AI will not feed YOU land from co belligerent nations as 'reward'.
I think this was installed to prevent player from doing seperate peace with co belligerents in a war, feeding an ally.. With the intent to destabilize them or force PU them after.
If the peace was done versus FRANCE and warleader at ONE, it might have worked.
But let me guess, the warleader AI peaced France out twice, giving you nothing? And then you got nothing at all, cause you didn't occupy any provinces in main war nation, as you didn't have it flagged as vital /strategic or you didn't have enough war contribution?
The main problem, if I understand it right, is that you can only give ALLY territory in wartarget nation, if you seperate peace the nation they JOINED for, to get the territtory THEY have.
The dev who programmed this expects all players to peace out with all cobelligerents at once, giving all allies a piece of vital land.. But who in its right mind does that? And does it even WORK? God knows i never tried to do such peace, where an ally who joined to get land, can or cannot accept land from co belligerent nations, if you 'include' it in main peace deal with enemy warleader..
Err, does the above make any sense?
1. Allies will never EVER except land from cobelligerent nations even if they flagged it as vital, and even if they join war for THAT land.
2. this works vice versa. The ai will never EVER give you land in seperate peace with cobelligerent, even if the territory is flagged as vital by YOU.
Problem is that AI isn't programmed to give you territory from cobelligerents. They will just seperate peace out thse nations and then after THAT conclude you did nothing for the war, leaving you with... nothing.
And even if warscore contribution is 'remembered', you didn't flag anything as 'vital' in the wartarget nation, hence AI gives you.. nothing.
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The ai isn't programmed to handle the new diplomacy rules.
Layers on top of layers of rules incite more and more exploits...
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Since you can't have provinces of interest aside your claims when you disable the Cossaks, I don't see what you are trying to point out.
It's still the same issue, the AI wont give you stuff.
wait what? Now i'm confused also. I thought patch notes said you can NOT give land to allies if you seperate peace a cobelligerent as they 'will not want it'. I know i couldn't with cossacks active; my ally plain refused to take vital land in seperate peace involving THEIR rival who they marked as vital territory..
Or are we speaking about NOT having cosacks dlc?
Think I start to get what the problem here is...
No I've seen it with Cossack's if a Nation has a claim or desires it they'll take it in a peace deal with a Secondary Participant. For example if I'm France and I'm Allied to Austria and a DOW Burgundy and Burgundy is allied to Venice for example and I don't make Venice a co-belligerent I can still give Austria Venice's land in a separate peace if Austria desire it. It won't count towards the primary war target if I promised Austria Burgundian land but I CAN still do it if I want. The AI just won't take land if 1)They don't desire it 2)It will give them to much Over Extension 3)It will give them too much AE.
Throwing away war score because reasons is design failure though, this isn't really an acceptable implementation of the mechanic. Wiz himself said making the AI do stuff like avoid westernization/play poorly on purpose didn't make sense...so why is the AI throwing away war score here?
That can't be the reason. Allies can refuse land just fine from the war leader (in fact refusing land they want and getting pissy for it even), why couldn't they do they do the same for cobelligerents?
This is a broken mechanic and easily reproducible. Either the tooltip or the mechanic must change, as there is no way to know in advance that giving your ally territory will not necessarily count as giving your ally territory. If you promise an ally land in advance, give it land in the war, then peace out while taking land yourself, there is no sane scenario whereby an ally receiving enough territory should view that as a broken promise.
The logic for peacing out and how the AI perceives peace deals in general is one of its most glaring flaws. Here is an obvious case of broken-ness:
In this war, failing the run for me, Kathiawar peaced out GIVING GUJARAT LAND. Why is that hopelessly inane? Gujarat had a grant total of 0 regiment on its side of the war, and could not recruit more. This is a situation where Kathiawar should be looking to take land, not giving away territory. Stab hit out of the war? Nope, nowhere near enough war score where a stab hit could be possible. This is overt and willful game-throwing by the AI.
Some bonus broken from the following attempt that went more successfully, just in case we were to forget about military access:
Which ally is in Bahmanis' territory, exactly? If they are my ally, I'd be able to see the regiments there.
Edit: Triple broken bonus! Why is it impossible for me to support rebels in the first picture?
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I just look to separate peace out of CtAs ASAP, luckily there are multiple workarounds to the favors system so its tolerable before it gets fun policed.
You can only support rebels generated by natural revolt system or by pretender revolt event, I think...
The second half of your post doesn't seem relevant at all. The AI misjudging the state of a war is different than the AI reneging on its promise to give the player land for joining its war.
The 2nd picture is especially off topic.
ok now this makes no sense to me. Austria joined my war, they flagged entire france as vital territory, yet they refused all french land in a seprate peace..
They had no OE and even one province of france they refused.. I don't get wh they make these new echanics so hopelessly opaque.
Most likely an enemy unit is there due to the "all participants in the war have access if one does" rule and they would lose access if you broke the treaty, causing them to be exiled thus an abusive and disallowed move.
The UI will actually tell you there are enemies in their border rather than allies if that is the case.
Unless you can show me how there are allied units in Bahmanis (and no, Bahmanis does not hold territory off screen), then "AI is a lying liar" should be readily applying in both pictures. The first picture is simply showing another facet of why the AI's evaluation of the state of the war is one of those things that has been left behind by the game for a long time now, plus a bonus bug where I have to fight previously friendly + previously exiled separatists heading back to their own country because reasons.
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No.
The first war (Austria vs Ottomans) was not a war where I was promised territory, and so I was not super surprised when Austria peaced out France by releasing Guyenne.
The second war (where they did promise me territory) they only peaced out Savoy (war leader). They got the core returns from France in the same peace.
The war contribution isn't reset when you peace out someone though. It's easy to see when you're in a big war where your allies take care of the defender's allies and don't get near the main war goal. When you peace out all the defender's allies, your allies still have their war contribution.
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I hope to get on top of this situation eventually (Wiz designed and implemented the current trust system), but AI-human interaction is *very* complicated. Either way, if you have saves that reproduce clear bugs, feel free to upload them.
The AI was screwing me over in similar way in a campaign I played this weekend, so will be looking at this particular aspect shortly.
Here's a save from days before the peace deal. I've tried reloading it and it happens the same way every time.
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