AI incapable of defense - seems to be a very, very big issue

[Heatth]

That excuse would have worked until 2 months ago. The got 1,5 years extra and they still don't have a proper AI. You don't really think anything is going to change until release, do you?

That was not an excuse. That was a straight answer for a specific question. And the subject was that Daniel's build AI seemed better than what we have seem with other youtubers.

 

[uglyduckling81]

You know what the difference was? They actually had an enemy to fight and didn't walk over hundreds of kilometers of empty Maginot Line stretches.

That's fair. Though you might of called the Maginot Line abandoned at some of the points it was taken.

At one point the Germans selected as a lightly held area only had 104 French soldiers holding it. All of them were killed in the attack and the line breached.

 

[TheCzarMan]

Better read the BICE forum thread about the game. Apparently the people behind it aren't even touching HOI4. Least that's the impression I got.

I find that funny since people can pull off the most ridiculous BS in HoI3, including the BICE mod.

 

[uglyduckling81]

I find that funny since people can pull off the most ridiculous BS in HoI3, including the BICE mod.

It makes sense. The BICE team has put years into their mod. They are unlikely to abandon that work for a while. Once no one is playing the mod anymore they will give it up. It is amazing work they have done. After using their mod its pretty much impossible to go back and play without it.

 

[Shade205]

Dunno what version Daniel is using but we have been doing a little bit of ai work since preview was sent

I certainly hope so.

 

[MJAnderson]

Was anyone expecting this to be any good until mid-2017?

 

[Taciturn Scot]

Have... have either of you even been watching any of this reviewer footage? Seriously?

I'm not expecting genius AI. However, what I'll tell you straight-up is that if, as Italy, the player can simply choose random divisions, draw a frontline from Southern France and an arrow pointing at Paris, and then capture Paris successfully without any manual input whatsoever, you're going to be very bored, very soon. At least, I will be. Likewise, if you're playing Germany and France just decides to abandon the Maginot Line, you're going to be very bored, very quickly.

We're really not expecting supercomputer levels of intelligence here, nor are we really talking about expert players, for the most part. I seem to remember devs saying that world conquests in HoI4 will be unthinkable. Looking at quill's playthrough, I find that extremely unlikely.

Nope. I've been watching the WWW streams.

BTW, nobody is demanding a genius AI. Why don't you just wait and see what we get on Monday before complaining. The point has been made, a dev has confirmed that they have done some work on the AI since. I'm comfortable waiting until I get the game before I'm rioting, thanks.

 

[Rommel 459]

At the start of the stream twitch chat asks him about it and he says that it's an internal build, but not up to date.

I checked

Press Release Version: 1.0.0.19688(e914)

Da9L's version: 1.0.0.19830(97ce) https://www.twitch.tv/theda9l/v/70316888 @9:09

 

[Ricox]

Dunno what version Daniel is using but we have been doing a little bit of ai work since preview was sent

Thank you for the clarification, it does sound much safer now, but is there any word on whether, for example, the Maginot Line issue (since this region seems to be particularly messy under specific circumstances, both for German AI & French AI) has been worked on?

I just also saw a Germany gameplay where Sweden had 11 divisions in a single province and they didn't move them during the entire German invasion of Sweden. They basically surrendered the entire front and had these divisions (which then grew to 16, probably because of volunteers and such) encircled and destroyed. If Sweden had used those forces - they could have stopped the small German invasion or at least massively delayed it and inflicted some casualties.

 

[Shade205]

Was anyone expecting this to be any good until mid-2017?

I mean I was.. but apparently it's a crime to expect a quality product after a 1.5 year delay on this forum. I'm not sure why people stick up for paradox so much. Stellaris was extremely disappointing feature wise and hoi4 ai doesn't seem to be that impressive at all.

 

[Dimski]

I have heard from Karl on several of the www streams that the AI never is done, as in "here is a final product that we won't put any more work into". I don't think he reports in detail about what they're working on with the AI at specific times, as this would be very time consumeing, but he does give out general statements like regarding the maginot line. Here he have said that they found out about potentiel troubles with that a few weeks ago and are looking into it.
He haven't given a date for when it is sorted (to the best of my knowledge). I'm quite sure that that is because it's not clear when it's done, but that they're doing it as fast as they can.

So will we ever have a flawless AI? No, and I don't think that's even possible. As a mind experiment, try defineing "a flawless AI" - for me personelly that's hard to be very specific on, f.x I would want the AI to surprise me, but when is what it's doing a surprise, and when is't just plain stupid?
But I'm confident that we will have a very good AI in HOI4, judgeing from the streams and the after action reports. And then there's always mods if you would like to adjust it more to your personal taste.

 

[uglyduckling81]

The only thing I would say is it sounds like they have one guy working on AI.

This game probably needs 10 guys working on AI to make it really good. In fact I would say AI in this game is the most important aspect of the game overall.

 

[ashbery76]

The reality is A.I comes last in development.We could all see the A.I issue in the Stellaris streams pre release too.Expect the coming patches to have improvements.

 

[potski]

Here's some "homework" to keep you busy today, while you wait for the game. You can choose which question you want to answer. Some for hard core modders, some for history buffs, some for those studying the game over the last two years to see how much you have picked up, and some for the more observant of you who have watched the video carefully.

1. The video is not a straight recording of a live stream. We can tell that at 0:37 into the video. Discuss what significance this might that have for the outcome of the events that occur later.

2. The presenter of the video says that he has played the game (or at least the startup phase for Germany) four times previously and not seen this event. Does this mean that Paradox have built into the game that there will be a civil war in France and Germany and Italy will invade in 1936 20% of the time? How will this effect anyone playing the game as another country outside of the participants in the war?

3. What is your understanding of the phrase "fog of war"? Discuss what this means for the video presenter and the people watching his video.

In this particular game you can only see unit in or bordering your, your allies or your puppets units/territory, You do not have a guarantee of finding all units that meet this criteria, but if the units don't match the criteria, you can't see them.

It would suggest that the player doesn't have all the facts because he can't see all the French divisions or even most of their territory. So he doesn't have all the the information available. And the viewer has even less.

4. Describe the scripting mechanics of the civil war event(s) in HOI3. The triggers and actions that were involved, with specific reference to any that were unique to civil wars.

5. The player in the video as Germany selects a National Focus called Rhineland. What effects does this have?

6. Two extraordinary events occurred in the summer of 1917 in the Armies of Imperial Russia and the French Republic. What were these, and how do they have a bearing on the events in the video?

Best answer:

Both those armies Refused to fight, and mutinied, the Russian revolution ousted the last Tzar of Russia. the french severely weakened the allied lines, and Germany was kept from gaining the knowledge to take advantage of it partly through a fortuitous timing of American troops in arriving in France to reinforce the gaps in the lines. The uprising was prevented by the Allies increasing the care they were taking of the front line troops The Russian revolution was more similar to the civil war mechanic shown in the stream as the French never had units fire upon one another

Can you improve on that?

7. What is meant by a DMZ? How does this effect the actions of the player that we see in the video? How does it effect the AI?

8. In the Spanish Civil War the rebels were led by three Generals - Franco, Mola and Sanjurjo (though Sanjurjo died within days, and Mola a few months later). Discuss the statement, "The Spanish Civil War was a war between the Armed Forces of the Republic of Spain (Army, Navy and Air Force), and militia forces recruited from untrained government loyalists, including the International Brigades recruited from outside of Spain."

Best answer:

8. false The biggest part of the army stayed loyal to trhe Republic. . The were literally disbanded. Almost all the navy and the air forces also stayed with the Republic.

9. In prioritising it's fronts, how many fronts does the French AI have to decide between? Can you name them, and describe briefly their importance for France?

10. Italy immediately joined the war. WTF?

Best answer:

The diplomatic AI is weighted to evaluate certain things with different priorities, in this case...
it had a base reluctance to join of 20 for entropy
and another 50 for being a major nation, for a total of 70 reluctance
However
it was fascist joining a fascist faction for +10
strategic reasons to join with Germany for +2
It wanted to contain the aggression of the UK for +46
it had a positive opinion of Germany for +3
World tension made it want to join a faction by +1
Lastly it wanted to go to war with France for +20
for a total of 12 strategic interest in favor of joining the war
and so the AI joined up once the UK declared war giving Italy the push it needed to contain that dastardly aggression

Probably can't be beaten. What about that aggression?

11. The events that we see to create a war between France (and the Allies) and Germany appear to be unique to the game. What game mechanic which usually occurs before a war is missing from the video? What effect might this have on what we see happening in the video?


I'll check back throughout the day, and give marks for your answers. For some of these questions, I note the Wiki has no (complete) answers yet. I will create sections in the Wiki and incorporate the best answers, and give you credit on the page

If you can answer them all (correctly of course), then - Wow you are good!!

 

[Rommel 459]

Here's some "homework" to keep you busy today, while you wait for the game. You can choose which question you want to answer. Some for hard core modders, some for history buffs, some for those studying the game over the last two years to see how much you have picked up, and some for the more observant of you who have watched the video carefully.

1. The video is not a straight recording of a live stream. We can tell that at 0:37 into the video. Discuss what significance this might that have for the outcome of the events that occur later.

2. The presenter of the video says that he has played the game (or at least the startup phase for Germany) four times previously and not seen this event. Does this mean that Paradox have built into the game that there will be a civil war in France and Germany and Italy will invade in 1936 20% of the time? How will this effect anyone playing the game as another country outside of the participants in the war?

no, as the sampling size is to small to determine this, I suppose the effect would be to Tie up the major powers assuming France holds out, also as certain NF require peace, those NF's wont be able to be enacted

3. What is your understanding of the phrase "fog of war"? Discuss what this means for the video presenter and the people watching his video.

Its a mechanic in strategy games to simulate the uncertainty of war. In this particular game you can only see unit in or bordering your, your allies or your puppets units/territory, You do not have a guarantee of finding all units that meet this criteria, but if the units don't match the criteria, you can't see them.
how this affected the stream is that he had no idea where the french units where or what they were doing, just that they weren't on his border

4. Describe the scripting mechanics of the civil war event(s) in HOI3. The triggers and actions that were involved, with specific reference to any that were unique to civil wars.

it's been too long since i played HoI 3, i don't remember

5. The player in the video as Germany selects a National Focus called Rhineland. What effects does this have?

it gives Germany 120 political power and triggers an event chain starting with one for France?(or the UK?) where they can either allow it to happen (and gain national unity), or give an ultimatum which can lead to war, if they give the ultimatum Germany has an event allowing them to back down, or go to war with a France which is experiencing a civil war.
additionally if the allies allow the reoccupation, the Rhineland is no longer a DMZ and Germany can march troops through it

6. Two extraordinary events occurred in the summer of 1917 in the Armies of Imperial Russia and the French Republic. What were these, and how do they have a bearing on the events in the video?

Both those armies Refused to fight, and mutinied, the Russian revolution ousted the last Tzar of Russia. the french severely weakened the allied lines, and Germany was kept from gaining the knowledge to take advantage of it partly through a fortuitous timing of American troops in arriving in France to reinforce the gaps in the lines. The uprising was prevented by the Allies increasing the care they were taking of the front line troops The Russian revolution was more similar to the civil war mechanic shown in the stream as the French never had units fire upon one another

7. What is meant by a DMZ? How does this effect the actions of the player that we see in the video? How does it effect the AI?

a DMZ is a DeMilitarized Zone, it's a region that military forces are not allowed within.. In-game the player could not station troops inside a DMZ within his borders, the AI would no put troops in the DMZ even though it had a front line moving through the DMZ and you're not allowed to deploy troops in a DMZ

8. In the Spanish Civil War the rebels were led by three Generals - Franco, Mola and Sanjurjo (though Sanjurjo died within days, and Mola a few months later). Discuss the statement, "The Spanish Civil War was a war between the Armed Forces of the Republic of Spain (Army, Navy and Air Force), and militia forces recruited from untrained government loyalists, including the International Brigades recruited from outside of Spain."

9. In prioritizing it's fronts, how many fronts does the French AI have to decide between? Can you name them, and describe briefly their importance for France?

It starts with 2-5 fronts, and gains 2-3 about a week later
at start of combat mainland France has the Maginot line and the rebellion front(which i'll name Calais for it's capitol) it has the borders with Spain and Italy as well
It also has an unknown number of active Fronts in Syria, Indochina, north, west and central Africa, and french Guyana due to the rebellion
a week later it gains additional fronts when Italy joins the war, this will activate additional fronts in north Africa and mainland France
The Maginot line is the most critical Front as once Germany pushes them out of it France will not be taking it back, and it acts as a massive force multiplier while held. i would say the second most critical is the rebellion, with Italy being a distant third, the situation France finds itself in is dire enough that i would pull out of all other fronts in favor of trying to save the situation in mainland France. though the loss of rubber from losing Indochina will hurt later.

10. Italy immediately joined the war. WTF?

The diplomatic AI is weighted to evaluate certain things with different priorities, in this case...
it had a base reluctance to join of 20 for entropy
and another 50 for being a major nation, for a total of 70 reluctance
However
it was fascist joining a fascist faction for +10
strategic reasons to join with Germany for +2
It wanted to contain the aggression of the UK for +46
it had a positive opinion of Germany for +3
World tension made it want to join a faction by +1
Lastly it wanted to go to war with France for +20
for a total of 12 strategic interest in favor of joining the war
and so the AI joined up once the UK declared war giving Italy the push it needed to contain that dastardly aggression

11. The events that we see to create a war between France (and the Allies) and Germany appear to be unique to the game. What game mechanic which usually occurs before a war is missing from the video? What effect might this have on what we see happening in the video?

Since it was a scripted event decision that started the war, there was no attempt to justify claims. this may have made the AI not prepare for the war very well

 

[pamourier]

The invasion of the low countries was distraction...the spearhead was trough Sedan

How could the BEF and French mobile armies be trapped and encircled in Dunkirk without a fight to lure them into the low countries ?

 

[potski]

no, as the sampling size is to small to determine this, I suppose the effect would be to Tie up the major powers assuming France holds out, also as certain NF require peace, those NF's wont be able to be enacted...

Excellent work. I think that deserves a general A just for attempting most of the questions, and some reallygood answers. One would have done

 

[potski]

no, as the sampling size is to small to determine this

Do we have other evidence of sampling size?

 

[potski]

it's been too long since i played HoI 3, i don't remember

Must try harder

 

[potski]

Its a mechanic in strategy games to simulate the uncertainty of war. In this particular game you can only see unit in or bordering your, your allies or your puppets units/territory, You do not have a guarantee of finding all units that meet this criteria, but if the units don't match the criteria, you can't see them.
how this affected the stream is that he had no idea where the french units where or what they were doing, just that they weren't on his border

B. Not answered the whole question