AI ignoring DotF strength

[TheMeInTeam]

Anybody else seeing this? I have done a few games as a very powerful Catholic DotF in Europe and a very powerful Sunni DotF in Asia. In both cases, the AI will *spam* declarations on nations where I receive a call. I don't notice this happening for AI DotF but maybe it does.

Regardless, it's asinine. I'm a 1000 regiment Mongolia as Sunni DotF and CNs that gained independence chain-declared on Brunei using their expansion CB. They'd make this attack despite that an AI in my situation would join (I was at peace, not in debt, no WE) and despite that I outnumbered them literally more than 10:1 in just standing forces. I got the same result as a Catholic Lucca; nations I outnumbered 10:1 again spammed declarations that were overtly suicide.

In both cases, after mopping the floor with the attackers a few times eventually it tried my patience too much and I'd just dishonor + re-buy. But when you do that 70 times, it floors your trust.

Can we not have the AI incessantly commit suicide? It's extremely annoying for the player and I don't see how this can be viewed as good play for the AI. It should be factoring DotF strength like it does allied strength unless player is rivaled to their target (AI DotF don't join to help rivals usually).

This is like a political-level version of the AI suicide 1-stack problem that's been around since the fort change, both really annoying problems that hurt the AI while adding tedium for the player.

 

[WSnova]

The AI is just not good at surviving in many ways.

Yeah I get this too. I just stopped being DotF because of all the spam wars I have to fight if I am actually roleplaying as one.

If the AI regarded its own survival its highest priority the game would be better. At least its not Rome total war level

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The AI is just not good at surviving in many ways.

Yeah I get this too. I just stopped being DotF because of all the spam wars I have to fight if I am actually roleplaying as one.

If the AI regarded its own survival its highest priority the game would be better. At least its not Rome total war level

Thing is, the AI usually doesn't declare into 1:10 odds against a nation that's at peace. In fact, I've never seen it outside of this mechanic that I can recall. Sometimes it is still a decent option (non-Sunni DotF in Africa, Sunni DotF after early game in Europe, Orthodox DotF, any new world DotF), but I would like to see the AI regard a DotF answering the call as a legit threat, especially when the defending power could trivially crush them with one of its 8 spare stacks that aren't on one of its two fronts because it's too lazy. One million manpower and 1000+ regiments is a lot.

Basically, if Navarra isn't yolo-declaring on France by itself in 1445, these kinds of wars shouldn't be happening either. Navarra actually has MORE troops relative to France in 1444 than most of these nations had on me.

 

[Chaingun]

I did a quick check and it appears this is not in bug database. Please post in bug forum with save attached.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I did a quick check and it appears this is not in bug database. Please post in bug forum with save attached.

I noticed it on ironman. I could custom-nation an 800 point nation in 1444 and buy DotF with console money though. If it still happens I'll just post that I guess.

 

[AurochsAway]

I've noticed it too. World-dominating Spain does not want into Hesse's Cleansing of Heresy war with Trier!

 

[SolSys]

if Navarra isn't yolo-declaring on France by itself in 1445

That phrasing just made me laugh.

Maybe it happens and we just don't notice because there isn't any significant hits to refusing such a call [besides losing the title = 500g].
I know I do it when I can't be bothered and just pay the price anew**.


**Commoner 1: "have you heard? A new DotF has arisen."
Commoner 2: "Finally! A real man of Go..."
Commoner 1: "Darn... its the scumbag from before."
Commoner 2: "And he look suspiciously similar to the one before him too."

 

[WSnova]

Thing is, the AI usually doesn't declare into 1:10 odds against a nation that's at peace. In fact, I've never seen it outside of this mechanic that I can recall. Sometimes it is still a decent option (non-Sunni DotF in Africa, Sunni DotF after early game in Europe, Orthodox DotF, any new world DotF), but I would like to see the AI regard a DotF answering the call as a legit threat, especially when the defending power could trivially crush them with one of its 8 spare stacks that aren't on one of its two fronts because it's too lazy. One million manpower and 1000+ regiments is a lot.

Basically, if Navarra isn't yolo-declaring on France by itself in 1445, these kinds of wars shouldn't be happening either. Navarra actually has MORE troops relative to France in 1444 than most of these nations had on me.

But as you said they happily Yolo march into hostile lands with small amounts of soldiers and they still yolo suicide their navy by seeking battle after battle. And I said it was not Rome total war level anyways.

Ahh good old rome where a one province faction declares war against my 50 province faction by sending a single boat to blockade your port.

But yeah Defender of the fiath is particularly bad because you have to put up with all the suicidal war decs lol

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That phrasing just made me laugh.

Maybe it happens and we just don't notice because there isn't any significant hits to refusing such a call [besides losing the title = 500g].
I know I do it when I can't be bothered and just pay the price anew**.


**Commoner 1: "have you heard? A new DotF has arisen."
Commoner 2: "Finally! A real man of Go..."
Commoner 1: "Darn... its the scumbag from before."
Commoner 2: "And he look suspiciously similar to the one before him too."

You lose trust, which has an impact on vassal liberty desire and making alliances (I was getting -47 from trust at the end of that game, a penalty on par with being allied to their rival). At the floor it appears to be +25 liberty desire on subjects.

Fortunately, I had prestige in spades (privileged religion and whatnot) and the troops to back up my claim (so relative power was a joke), meaning I could still keep a really distrusting march Castile in La Plata loyal with minimal expenditure of prestige. It's more annoying than anything, but if 1.14 were to make trust more relevant (especially wrt favors and CTA) it'll become a real problem fast.

 

[Zqrfmb]

It does happen for AI DoF, I've seen a DoF France destroy nations in the name of catholic OPM safety.

 

[SolSys]

You lose trust, which has an impact on vassal liberty desire and making alliances (I was getting -47 from trust at the end of that game, a penalty on par with being allied to their rival). At the floor it appears to be +25 liberty desire on subjects.

Fortunately, I had prestige in spades (privileged religion and whatnot) and the troops to back up my claim (so relative power was a joke), meaning I could still keep a really distrusting march Castile in La Plata loyal with minimal expenditure of prestige. It's more annoying than anything, but if 1.14 were to make trust more relevant (especially wrt favors and CTA) it'll become a real problem fast.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. You can learn something new even after 2 years.
I usually tend to go for DotF at late game when I'm all strong and just need the extra missionary so I never really noticed all the negative issues [I attributed the LD of the CNs to admin efficiency].

 

[breum]

I've noticed this frequently in my game as Bahmanis as the Shia DotF. Most especially with a semi-blobby Oman beating up on an alliance of 3-4 province countries in the Arabian peninsula/Horn of Africa. the target of the DoW was Haasa over and over, and while it may have been an even war without my armies, when my 75k gets added in, things go downhill for Oman real quickly. Not to mention the OPM's that are randomly released in North India that 2-3 province countries declare on. Once I enter the war, the OPM's become the 2-3 province countries easily.

 

[Krajzen]

I join this thread. I have just seen a Crimea (60k army) declare war on very weak and alone Commonwealth (25k army) without caring about extremely powerful Bavaria being Catholic Defender of Faith at the time, ready to join (300k army, emperor and half of HRE cored by them). They had no chance against such power and suffered horribly.

 

[HansBaer]

I don't like dotf anyway, remove it for all I care. It just causes ridiculous wars or even worse, a static game once France or something similar is dotf. Protestant AIs have a hard enough time even without it.

It's a nice crutch for WC but just hurts gameplay in normal games.

 

[Krajzen]

I don't like dotf anyway, remove it for all I care. It just causes ridiculous wars or even worse, a static game once France or something similar is dotf. Protestant AIs have a hard enough time even without it.

It's a nice crutch for WC but just hurts gameplay in normal games.

Yeah, it looks like a leftover from EU3 (yeah it was in the 1.0 version of EU3! 10 years ago), is not connected to any other mechanic in the game, doesn't exactly make sense and is frustrating.

 

[TingJonKi]

I don't like dotf anyway, remove it for all I care. It just causes ridiculous wars or even worse, a static game once France or something similar is dotf. Protestant AIs have a hard enough time even without it.

It's a nice crutch for WC but just hurts gameplay in normal games.

Agreed

DotF needs a serious rework

 

[atwix]

yes, bug confirmed.

Does 'dishonouring' DOTF lower trust? Never realised that. Trust with who? The nations attacked? All same religion nations in that continent?

 

[PedroVargas]

From my experience I can confirm that AI is ignoring the strength of DotF. It's esxpecially weird when you're defender of Protestants or Catholics and have to fight war mongering OPMs all the time that think they can fight their OPM neighbor without your 500K army stopping them.

I'm not fully sure but it might be the same case with emperor when AI declares on a member of the empire and the emperor brings in his huge allies to crush the aggressor. It's as if the AI ignores the strength of these secondary allies. It's only a suspicion I had a couple of times as it's harder to prove than the DotF case.

 

[baaldrix]

I'm not fully sure but it might be the same case with emperor when AI declares on a member of the empire and the emperor brings in his huge allies to crush the aggressor. It's as if the AI ignores the strength of these secondary allies. It's only a suspicion I had a couple of times as it's harder to prove than the DotF case.

I think you might be on to something here. Yesterday I had a somewhat weird experience as Muscovy while guaranteeing a nation - I thought if I guarantee Mamluks (couldn't ally them at that time) it would stop Ottomans from expanding into Levant and Egypt. Ottos were allied only to Tunis with no vassals, I had 4 decent-sized vassals and was 1 mil tech ahead, and together we roughly outnumbered them 2:1, only my manpower was quite low and theirs was full. However Ottos DOW'ed Mamluks the moment they got the Levant mission.

I know we're talking Ottomans here, so it's not really clear whether their DOW calculation included my guarantee or not. But it was still a bit of a wtf? moment for me.

 

[Florryworry]

yes, bug confirmed.

Does 'dishonouring' DOTF lower trust? Never realised that. Trust with who? The nations attacked? All same religion nations in that continent?

Im assuming all same religions as TMIT recalled his vassals becoming disloyal because of it, damn thats harsh