AI 'handicap' on border forts goes too far.

[Gigawot]

That is more or less what I´ve been trying to say all along but apparently few ppl think that way; most people must have a hard time defeating this brain-dead AI if they think that the free forts cheat goes too far. Just compare the like/deslike ratio of the OP and the 2nd post. Lol

With respect, The majority of us have not got several thousands of hours of gameplay. or the intensity of which you play your own campaigns. Ive watched a couple of your campaigns and i simply do not have the effort required to compete with the amount of planning and skill you put into the game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That is more or less what I´ve been trying to say all along but apparently few ppl think that way; most people must have a hard time defeating this brain-dead AI if they think that the free forts cheat goes too far. Just compare the like/deslike ratio of the OP and the 2nd post. Lol

I think a lot of people just don't like the fort mechanic as implemented and as a result will come to dislike anything that will cause more of them to be spammed freely. I know you especially don't like wait mechanics, because they constrain you more so than most. While I agree that compared to some of the major design issues with the game the AI fort cheat is minor, it's still essentially a "have more waiting" rather than "have more difficulty". As I said, if this were really about the AI's cash reserves or efficacy, they could have easily given it any number of alternative bonuses that would make it far stronger than the fort bonus.

They chose the free forts specifically because they wanted the AI to have more fully maintained forts all over the place, no other motivation makes sense here...but if an unpopular mechanic is heavily incentivized in an artificial way, of course it will be unpopular.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I just imagined the Ottomans with free forts and drastically cheaper mercenaries. I think I threw up a little in my mouth. :x

Back in 1.7 I defeated Austria as OPM Frankfurt ~6 years into the game without any allies (only possible due to mindboggling AI stupidity) so forgive me if I don´t share your view. Basically what makes me want to throw up wrt to EU IV is seeing the AI behave like a headless chicken, unfortunately it happens so many times that I have no choice but to handle it if I want to keep playing which sometimes makes me “complain” at the forums and ask for a better AI.

 

[ChildeR]

That is more or less what I´ve been trying to say all along but apparently few ppl think that way; most people must have a hard time defeating this brain-dead AI if they think that the free forts cheat goes too far. Just compare the like/deslike ratio of the OP and the 2nd post. Lol

I agree that there are (much) worse problems that probably ought to be prioritized, but I also think this is a problem that can and should eventually be solved. I won't pretend to know how much effort it will take, so I'm not saying it is necessarily worth it to spend that time now, especially if other changes to forts are being considered.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

With respect, The majority of us have not got several thousands of hours of gameplay. or the intensity of which you play your own campaigns. Ive watched a couple of your campaigns and i simply do not have the effort required to compete with the amount of planning and skill you put into the game.

I did not want to be disrespectful either but for me the AI is too easy to beat especially if it bankrupts itself due to forts; so while not being ideal in my mind this change is better than the alternative. To win at this game we don´t need a huge amount of planning but we do need to understand a few basic mechanics and a decent plan even if you only designed it in your head like me. I think that it is not skill but rather understanding of the game mechanics, discipline and patience which ofc can be seen as skill but whatever. Thanks for the compliment.

I think a lot of people just don't like the fort mechanic as implemented and as a result will come to dislike anything that will cause more of them to be spammed freely. I know you especially don't like wait mechanics, because they constrain you more so than most. While I agree that compared to some of the major design issues with the game the AI fort cheat is minor, it's still essentially a "have more waiting" rather than "have more difficulty". As I said, if this were really about the AI's cash reserves or efficacy, they could have easily given it any number of alternative bonuses that would make it far stronger than the fort bonus.

They chose the free forts specifically because they wanted the AI to have more fully maintained forts all over the place, no other motivation makes sense here...but if an unpopular mechanic is heavily incentivized in an artificial way, of course it will be unpopular.

Yeah, but they probably don´t care or understand the implications of not doing it at this point. For example one of my vassals (IIRC a pretty big Yuan) in my 1632 WC run managed to nearly bankrupt itself (no army) despite never being at war and only have same religion/culture coastal provinces. The culprit? Rebels, forts that they built themselves and ineptitude.
Yeah no one likes forts especially with their current silly rules/pathing and I don´t like waiting either. But to be fair the game design forces you to wait for everything but it is balanced in a way that still makes the game (very) fun (regency council and 15 years truces excluded); my point is that I don´t mind to wait a bit more WRT forts if it is required as a workaround while we wait for a more permanent fix to the AI ability to deal with them. If this is meant as a permanet solution then I agree with you at 100%.

 

[grommile]

Yeah no one likes forts

I like modest numbers of blocking forts better than I liked carpets of non-blocking forts.

It's a shame they've been implemented... suboptimally.

 

[Freudia]

I like modest numbers of blocking forts better than I liked carpets of non-blocking forts.

It's a shame they've been implemented... suboptimally.

Basically this. I like the idea of only having like three or four priority war targets in a war against a large nation, but the things the AI's been given to accommodate for that seem to outweigh the positives at times.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I like modest numbers of blocking forts better than I liked carpets of non-blocking forts.

It's a shame they've been implemented... suboptimally.

Yeah I agree at 100%

 

[TheMeInTeam]

How many AI bonuses have been later revoked? I see where you're coming from though; I've fed vassals before the introduction of "grant province" and watched them actually hit bankruptcy. While in scutage, no less, so no wars/WE/need to do anything but core < 100% OE.

Ever since then I just delete the forts then grant province. Knowing that they get freebies in most cases maybe I won't bother now until after annexing them, though bringing them into wars after the very early goings where you need bodies seems counter-productive regardless.

Protectorates are fun to screw around with and a bit sturdier because you can do idiocy like full annex --> release + give them 20% morale and 5% discipline, dragging them into *any* war off your home continent. *** pulling a mini France is kinda fun but it has no real utility other than in protectorate based WC.

 

[ChildeR]

How many AI bonuses have been later revoked?

The extra diprel and the colonial range bonus at least. Does AI get reduced native uprisings even with Cossacks where they can avoid them?

 

[grommile]

The extra diprel and the colonial range bonus at least. Does AI get reduced native uprisings even with Cossacks where they can avoid them?

IIRC in 1.14+ the AI is simply placed under orders to always pick the colonial policy that completely eliminates native uprisings.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

How many AI bonuses have been later revoked?

I´ve seen several AI improvements over the years including new mechanics introduced in one patch while the AI was only taught to use them much later. So I still have hope but maybe it is fools hope IDK.

though bringing them into wars after the very early goings where you need bodies seems counter-productive regardless.

In my experience it is definitely counter-productive especially with superiority war goals because sometimes they only do what they please (and get stack wiped, etc). At some point in my 1579 WC I did need them to help me deal with my rebellions (basically unsiege my provinces) or to take care of smaller vassals rebellions; after that crisis was over I quickly hit the scutage button because they were a huge player handicap for everything but the easiest of wars.

Edit: My frustration with the AI is such that after my 1.8 1624 WC as Austria and my 1.9 TTM I started avoiding allies and vassals like the plague in an attempt to still enjoy this game. Everything was literally better for my immersion than watching a bunch of morons sieging a province with 200k.

 

[Frogbait]

I did not want to be disrespectful either but for me the AI is too easy to beat especially if it bankrupts itself due to forts; so while not being ideal in my mind this change is better than the alternative. To win at this game we don´t need a huge amount of planning but we do need to understand a few basic mechanics and a decent plan even if you only designed it in your head like me. I think that it is not skill but rather understanding of the game mechanics, discipline and patience which ofc can be seen as skill but whatever. Thanks for the compliment.

It would be nice if they could code a difficulty to level higher than currently for players like you and me to have a higher functioning AI. But we are in the minority. Understanding game mechanics, discipline, and patience is all factored into skill when it comes to video games my friend. Especially the former.

 

[brifbates]

It would be nice if they could code a difficulty to level higher than currently for players like you and me to have a higher functioning AI. But we are in the minority. Understanding game mechanics, discipline, and patience is all factored into skill when it comes to video games my friend. Especially the former.

There is only so much that can be done with an ai in a real-time situation without requiring massive resources. You then need to apply that ai to 200+ nations at once, requiring even more resources. After all of that there is still the factor that no ai is going to be immune to players "figuring it out" and taking advantage of it. Compared to some other ais I've seen given much easier conditions (Civ V anyone?) the EU IV ai is godly.

 

[bbqftw]

That is more or less what I´ve been trying to say all along but apparently few ppl think that way; most people must have a hard time defeating this brain-dead AI if they think that the free forts cheat goes too far. Just compare the like/deslike ratio of the OP and the 2nd post. Lol

I think a lot of the fast WC times in 1.14 are in part due to estates combined with forts utterly destroying the economies of large countries...

I can only think of one AI country under normal difficulty settings that fielded more than 100 regiments in that patch, and this was even by ~1700 (Austria that had manually annexed half the princes).

 

[Grand Historian]

I like modest numbers of blocking forts better than I liked carpets of non-blocking forts.

It's a shame they've been implemented... suboptimally.

I think the real anger towards the new forts stems from how vague and complex the rules on what they can and can't block are and the scarcity of Siege Ability for lategame ones than the forts themselves. The idea's good, and I like it, but the implementation is always tricky.

 

[ramius3443]

There is only so much that can be done with an ai in a real-time situation without requiring massive resources. You then need to apply that ai to 200+ nations at once, requiring even more resources. After all of that there is still the factor that no ai is going to be immune to players "figuring it out" and taking advantage of it. Compared to some other ais I've seen given much easier conditions (Civ V anyone?) the EU IV ai is godly.

For an even better example, compare Paradox's diplomatic AI with the diplomatic AI of it's main competetors: after 6 iterations of Civilization the AI is still just as indecipherable, obtuse, and clueless in the diplomatic field. Diplomacy has long been a serious complaint of the Total War franchise as well, with seemingly no fix ever to be found.

As it is, Paradox has managed to craft an AI that allows them to plot to kill the heir to the throne of X title, so that the title passes to a relative who is matrinillially married to it. Simultaneously, paradox AI is capable of checking to see if your armies are actually capable of self defense, and your ability to rebuild them, before attacking. That sounds simple, but its missing from alot of other strategy games, where the AI just declares war because lolz


So you know, I am totally ok to a few cheats here and there if it's necessary. Id just like to know about them in advance.



edit: btw, I love the fort system as is. I found the previous system defense boring and uninteresting, and actually like how defenses can make a difference. I aint a power gamer (despite my 1000 hours) so I genuinely enjoy constructing defensive lines that can keep the heathens away.

 

[Frogbait]

There is only so much that can be done with an ai in a real-time situation without requiring massive resources. You then need to apply that ai to 200+ nations at once, requiring even more resources. After all of that there is still the factor that no ai is going to be immune to players "figuring it out" and taking advantage of it. Compared to some other ais I've seen given much easier conditions (Civ V anyone?) the EU IV ai is godly.

Oh I'm well aware of the issues. I agree EU4 AI is quite fantastic relative to its restrictions and competition. Still have hopes and dreams

 

[Ternega]

For me the forts are annoying because they, as they are right now, simply have to many negatives for next to no benefit.
Positive:
1. Gets rid of the old carpet sieging gig.
2. Adds tactical depth to war. To elaborate - I almost never had issue with figuring out how fort pathing works, sans few situations where it's outright bugged, so I rather like them as a mechanic to control enemy armies movements. But it doesn't mean it makes game more difficult, just different.

Negative:
1. There are simply too many of them in a lot of countries, prolonging wars that have clearly been won for no reason, other than "wait while game rolls dice for you".
2. Their maintenance is so high, that in early stages of the game I simply can't justify wasting resources so egregiously, unless it's of absolute importance, such as straits, choke points and defensive positions next to a major threat.
3. Encourage siege wars. This is when instead of actually fighting your enemy you re better off sitting with high siege general on a fort than trying to outmanoeuvre opponents army.


The issue raised by this thread in itself, in my opinion is not a problem, rather a symptom of one system having to deal with another system that doesn't work well, to the point where the only solution to keep the first system (AI) working well is to cheat.

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

I think a lot of the fast WC times in 1.14 are in part due to estates combined with forts utterly destroying the economies of large countries...

I can only think of one AI country under normal difficulty settings that fielded more than 100 regiments in that patch, and this was even by ~1700 (Austria that had manually annexed half the princes).

Yes it made it easier but IMO the biggest impact was done hands down by the forts because they are like mushrooms in AI ruled countries which translates into much less money to go very above the force limits (like the AI used/likes to do). Anyway I designed a plan that despite the fort cheat and redesigned estates it *should* let me trash the current WC record in 1.15 (with a non-horde) but atm I am too burned out on EU IV to put it in practice so maybe I will do it later or maybe I won´t. We will see.

Edit: Ofc it is also faster to achieve a one tag without having a fort in every single province like in 1.11 and below.