AI 'handicap' on border forts goes too far.

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Arumba

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In a recent patch the AI was given a small change that was supposed to help alleviate the player's ability to do timed attacks against mothballed border forts. Here's the situation:

The AI is notoriously bad at managing finances, so they would mothball their forts even as a very aggressive neighbor had an army at their doorstep. Player positions their army, declares war on 01 of a month, and before the end of that month, they march their army to the province. Forts under siege cannot recover garrison. So the 0 garrison fort would automatically fall within one siege cycle, or roughly 30 days.

Paradox's solution was to make border forts free for all AI countries to maintain. Sounds like a minor change to fix blatant player/ai abuse, right? But its not just border forts. It's any fort that border's another country, or any sea tile, and even *wastelands*.

So now we have this situation: Nov 11th, 1444, Ottomans. They have 4 forts and roughly 28 ducats/mo income. All of the forts border sea tiles or other countries. Seen here: http://imgur.com/a/wvCrT

So now we have what is already (just one of many examples of) a very strong country, with very high relative starting income, and 0.00 maintenance on their forts. As they expand on all the nearby cores via missions and reconquest they pick up another half dozen forts or more, and again almost every single one of them is 0.00 maintenance. When they upgrade the forts to level 2, or 3 or 4, they are *still free*.

In one of my recent campaign's with Shen, we counted up the forts that the Ottomans had amassed in ~100 years, and the number was ~27. How many did they have to pay for? Three.

My point in making this post is to call this type of balancing out. This is not Civilization 5. This is not a game where the AI should be balanced versus the player with AI cheats.

We deserve a better solution to the problem than this.
 
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While I do agree with you I am afraid the AI will have to keep cheating if we want it to be more than a mere pushover because it still can´t do the basics right let alone handle the economy or forts in a reasonable way.
 
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jordanjay29

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Well, this explains France in my England games. I can't wade through their territory worth crap, but since their's borders mine in such ways, they can avoid my forts for the most part (assuming I can afford to pay for them). With so many vassals in the early game, I have a feeling France got most of their forts penalty free, and like the Ottomans, kept them that way.
 
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Zelius

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You can see other nations' fort maintenance? You learn something new every day.

I agree, and propose a few possible solutions:
1. Remove this and make the AI stop taking so many god-damned loans that it needs to repay.
2. Move the lowered fort maintenance from border forts to Revanchism, so only nations that need it will get it. Countries doing poorly were where mothballed forts were exploited most anyway. (Also, fix revanchism for allied nations that didn't lose land!) This still makes revanchism more useful for large nations, but at least they are not getting buffed all the time.
3. Free border forts only for land borders (not sea regions, wastelands), and limited to one per Region / Area. Or have AI delete overlapping forts if it cannot afford them.
 
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alyoso

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At the very least, don't let them gain army tradition off of the free forts. I can see giving the AI more money, but not other, hard to get/maintain resources.
 
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This explains a lot about the relative strength of blobs this patch compared to 1.14, where there were very few worthy endbosses in Europe.

All I can say is, good.

Better this than Ottomans fielding pathetic 80 regiments with all of Balkans + Egypt (which was crap that happened in 1.14, admittedly estates played a large part in this as well), or France fielding <100k midgame with Brittany / Provence + inheritance.
 
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Well at the moment with the state of the game it has the AI with free forts and the majority of humans, at least in singleplayer, deleting all of them since they cost too much. Why not just have them free for all but a limit based on your forcelimit?
 
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Arumba

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Well at the moment with the state of the game it has the AI with free forts and the majority of humans, at least in singleplayer, deleting all of them since they cost too much. Why not just have them free for all but a limit based on your forcelimit?

A fort "force limit"? I like the idea of that. I had proposed to wiz a few weeks ago the concept of being able to relocate forts over time (since they dont really represent castles, they represent multiple province defensive networks), and he liked the idea... the concept of having a certain number of forts that you could choose to exceed for increasingly higher expense, provided that you could slowly relocate them.... that could be cool.
 
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This explains a lot about the relative strength of blobs this patch compared to 1.14, where there were very few worthy endbosses in Europe.

All I can say is, good.

Better this than Ottomans fielding pathetic 80 regiments with all of Balkans + Egypt (which was crap that happened in 1.14, admittedly estates played a large part in this as well), or France fielding <100k midgame with Brittany / Provence + inheritance.

I don't think the big blobs need more money. They already have lucky nation bonuses, if you thrash them they will bounce right back with 100% revanchism buffs, and now they can afford to spam more mercs from behind the safety of their free level 8 forts... At the very least war enthusiasm should go down with multiple loans; if the AI considers refusing CtA due to loans they should think about maybe peacing out due to having too many loans.
 
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I don't think the big blobs need more money. They already have lucky nation bonuses, if you thrash them they will bounce right back with 100% revanchism buffs, and now they can afford to spam more mercs from behind the safety of their free level 8 forts...
I am afraid that revanchism (etc) did not work as the devs expected because I´ve heard of people that conquered all blobs along with everyone else in less than 150 years (apparently without cheating). The AI cheating WRT fort maintenance won´t solve the problem either not even by a long shot but at least the brain-dead AI will have more money to spend on mercs and useful things like shipyards and even more forts.
 
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A fort "force limit"? I like the idea of that. I had proposed to wiz a few weeks ago the concept of being able to relocate forts over time (since they dont really represent castles, they represent multiple province defensive networks), and he liked the idea... the concept of having a certain number of forts that you could choose to exceed for increasingly higher expense, provided that you could slowly relocate them.... that could be cool.
As someone who normally doesn't agree with you, this is something I think would be brilliant. That said, there should probably be more of a WS or War exhaustion malus to occupied provinces that are not fortified or in an allied fort's ZoC. Otherwise there would be little point even if they are free to put them down in SP. as it currently stands, the biggest reason why forts are not used is because there is not a point to having a fort on a non-capital province since it's just liable WS for the AI to take. There are certain circumstances where you do want them, but overall just putting your capital on an island and protecting it with a fleet means the AI will never really be able to hurt you/your country unless it can kill your fleet. And AI fleet logic means putting ~100 galleys in defense the AI will rarely look to take it on, even if it has a superior fleet since the fleet won't be merged.
 

bbqftw

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I am afraid that revanchism (etc) did not work as the devs expected because I´ve heard of people that conquered all blobs along with everyone else in less than 150 years (apparently without cheating). The AI cheating WRT fort maintenance won´t solve the problem either not even by a long shot but at least the brain-dead AI will have more money to spend on mercs and useful things like shipyards and even more forts.
It just floored me in my WC games just how many AI nations thought spamming grand shipyards on all their provinces was a great idea.

I don't think the big blobs need more money. They already have lucky nation bonuses, if you thrash them they will bounce right back with 100% revanchism buffs, and now they can afford to spam more mercs from behind the safety of their free level 8 forts... At the very least war enthusiasm should go down with multiple loans; if the AI considers refusing CtA due to loans they should think about maybe peacing out due to having too many loans.
1.14 practically every blob clearly couldn't afford army + forts, only in this patch are army sizes reasonable, and free fort + estate buffs are a large part of that.

I am afraid that revanchism (etc) did not work as the devs expected because I´ve heard of people that conquered all blobs along with everyone else in less than 150 years (apparently without cheating). The AI cheating WRT fort maintenance won´t solve the problem either not even by a long shot but at least the brain-dead AI will have more money to spend on mercs and useful things like shipyards and even more forts.

only so much increased manpower recovery can do when a country has lost 20% of its force limit in a war. And vs. guys like France, you just take Caux in the first war, park a 100k stack there right before you DOW, then headshot their stack in Paris before the morale tick
 
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I am afraid that revanchism (etc) did not work as the devs expected because I´ve heard of people that conquered all blobs along with everyone else in less than 150 years (apparently without cheating). The AI cheating WRT fort maintenance won´t solve the problem either not even by a long shot but at least the brain-dead AI will have more money to spend on mercs and useful things like shipyards and even more forts.
I've seen you and TMIT use WRT a few times and I remember working out what it meant yesterday, but I've forgotten and for the life of me cannot figure it out. Mind defining WRT?

What do you mean by the sub 150 years? Are you talking about the recording breaking WCs you and Saarah did?

I do agree Revanchism is rather lackluster as it currently stands and it did not really address the issue it was trying to solve.

It would be nice if the AI worked in such a way that in a defensive war it wouldn't try to go on the offensive because it feels that it needs to do something other than defend to win the war. Just having it be able to sit on defensive terrain and essentially force the player to come to it rather than just letting the player out maneuver it would be fantastic. But of course it would be if the player is threatening it with an army that the AI could not beat that was not occupied elsewhere. Otherwise I could think of how abusable that would be.

It would also be nice if the AI would be programmed to economy well and instead of forcing itself every single decent war into massive debt if it could calculate when it needs to go all out to win the war or not. Hell I think it's be kind of nice if one of the conditions would be to do so against the player at all times. Otherwise it should be able to calculate how much of a threat the AI is and how much it really needs to devote in a war before it is no longer worth the cost.
 
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Frogbait

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It just floored me in my WC just how many AI nations thought spamming grand shipyards on all their provinces was a great idea.
I'm pretty sure as of 1.13 the only thing that was higher than a shipyard for AI priorities on a coastal province was a marketplace if it was a CoT based off of what I saw when I took provinces. It made me hate shipyards with a passion trying to somewhat optimize the income of a decent amount of areas. Logic may have been changed since, but thinking it probably hasn't
 
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I could understand giving the AI forts a minimum garrison so that they aren't rushed, but zero maintenance... ever? That's a bit extreme. I'm all in favour of giving the AI some bonuses to compensate for shortfalls in their logical capabilities, but it sounds like that patch was rather awkwardly done.

That said, even despite that bonus I still didn't find the Ottomans to be too great in my most recent game. If anything it was the Commonwealth that reigned supreme, and most of their forts were inland. So I don't know if more money for the AI really amounts to anything other than more buildings of... questionable usefulness.
 
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Ternega

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I think the idea of giving some free maintenance forts to both players and AI would be good solution to this issue. Also jarring that AI discount on border forts affects both active and passive maintenance of forts, thus making it cheaper for the AI to have a maintained fort on the border than for a player to have a mothballed one.
 
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BarrosRodrigues

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It just floored me in my WC games just how many AI nations thought spamming grand shipyards on all their provinces was a great idea.
It is really silly and there is no good explanation for that since it should be the result of scripts like in HOI III (...)
I've seen you and TMIT use WRT a few times and I remember working out what it meant yesterday, but I've forgotten and for the life of me cannot figure it out. Mind defining WRT?

WRT is the abbreviation of "With regard to"

It would be nice if the AI worked in such a way that in a defensive war it wouldn't try to go on the offensive because it feels that it needs to do something other than defend to win the war. Just having it be able to sit on defensive terrain and essentially force the player to come to it rather than just letting the player out maneuver it would be fantastic. But of course it would be if the player is threatening it with an army that the AI could not beat that was not occupied elsewhere. Otherwise I could think of how abusable that would be.

It would also be nice if the AI would be programmed to economy well and instead of forcing itself every single decent war into massive debt if it could calculate when it needs to go all out to win the war or not. Hell I think it's be kind of nice if one of the conditions would be to do so against the player at all times. Otherwise it should be able to calculate how much of a threat the AI is and how much it really needs to devote in a war before it is no longer worth the cost.
Since ~2011 I´ve been asking for better AI for HOI but the best that I got from the developers at some point was something in the line of "AI does not sell games" (I can´t locate that post, sorry). Since it is a huge undertaking to program a clever AI, what I usually see instead is workarounds to increase the AI ability to stall the player. The AI cheating does not bother me so much as seeing games loose depth as a workaround for the lack of good AI. TL;DR So yeah I would love a clever AI but since that is not going to happen, letting the AI cheat is the lesser of two evils I guess.
 
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Red John

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Gosh, that's absurd.

I don't think it's working as designed, though, surely. There's logic in the idea, but it's clearly been implemented poorly.
 

Zelius

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I am afraid that revanchism (etc) did not work as the devs expected because I´ve heard of people that conquered all blobs along with everyone else in less than 150 years (apparently without cheating). The AI cheating WRT fort maintenance won´t solve the problem either not even by a long shot but at least the brain-dead AI will have more money to spend on mercs and useful things like shipyards and even more forts.

I don't think the point was to give AI more cash, but rather to prevent player exploits on mothballed forts (AI vs AI is usually too slow to snag more than the occasional fort in such circumstances c.f. force-marching player). If I wanted the AI nations to be buffed to overcome its decision-making deficiencies surely I could just increase the difficulty level?

Good point about the shipyards though. The AI really should stop buildings those everywhere. Or marketplaces on arid deserts with 1-2 base trade power...

Maybe the AI should consider hoarding ducats as a valid strategy. It'd be great if it could plan like this in the medium-long term, but perhaps at least nations with militaristic rulers and/or many CBs / Vital Interest provinces should set aside more money for war, instead of making those buildings for me and immediately going into loans when I attack.
 
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jrk264

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If you're looking for a "minimum exploit-preventing cheat" I'd personally go for retroactive morale. When the AI receives a war declaration, let it move its maintenance up immediately and bump up (or even max out) its morale immediately instead of waiting for the month tick.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that it's hard to program an AI to spot ambushes, so putting in some ambush-proofing is fair. Free forts forever seems a little extreme.
 
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