AI Frontier Outpost placement and Border Dynamics.

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Comradical_v1

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So I start a normal game, and meet some nice neighbours, pacifists at that. We immediately make a non-aggression pact and I forget about them for a while, until this happens maybe thirty minutes into the game:
this shit.png


That's my first system, Phyrax, and to its left you can see the 'friendly' outpost. You see that star between the border? That _was_ mine, I had three stations already on it, but the border changes defaulted it over to the new outpost. The AI's terrible outpost placement might be bad enough, but the change in borders and therefore property is the real kicker here. In any other situation this would be considered theft, or in a political setting, an act of war.

Now maybe this sort of behavior would make sense, say if this were a hostile expansionist faction, the sort of stupid city placement you see in Civ 5; but these are my supposed allies. The worst part is, unlike Civ V, the AI sees nothing wrong with this sort of settlement, and you can do nothing to deter it. It's doubly bad this sort of behavior happened so early, as it would be devastating to my long-term territory growth.

Now you might say "just attack them and take it back. Well, let's assume I could (I signed a "non-aggression pact" remember?) Since the AI sees nothing wrong with this situation, all the AI would interpret this an unprovoked war, and I would take severe warmongering penalties at the very start of the game, assuming I could follow through with a war.

So basically my only option is to sit there, while they start to dislike me for border friction, the irony.

Surely everyone can see how this scenario is flawed. This is just my personal opinion, but If anything I would say don't allow entire planetary systems to change over instantly (or if they do, make it considered an act of war/aggression), make AI more aware of their outpost/colony placement, and have diplomatic options to deal with these sorts of scenarios.
 
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smjjames

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I've never seen them throw a frontier outpost that far away from them at the start, it's always been close enough for the borders to connect.

Did you do anything to reduce the influence costs of the frontier outposts? I suppose that might accidentially allow them to put it further away at start.

You could use the console, select the outpost, and do damage_1000 to kill the FO.
 

Tibi088

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One thing I dont like about this game is that borders are much more zones of control instead of real borders. This is especially true in cases were you or the ai already uses a system - has mining and research stations in it but than someone else comes and manages to push the border and puff, you lost your system. I know that in this case you get border friction but I think thats not enugh in cases like this. This would be a very serious diplomatic incident if not the satrt of a war in real life.
 
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Madzai

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It's not only with Allies, non-aggressive pacts and opportunists. Played as rather aggressive slaver Empires quite a lot with really bad diplo-relations with almost all galaxy (due to purges), but even the weakest AI Empire is never shy to put an outpost in a way it took a couple of systems from me. With easily predicted results...
Seems like AI isn't programmed to see outpost building as act of aggression or can't "predict" that building it could take more systems aside from one, he's been targeting at.
 

Adamsrealm

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So I start a normal game, and meet some nice neighbours, pacifists at that. We immediately make a non-aggression pact and I forget about them for a while, until this happens maybe thirty minutes into the game:View attachment 233867

That's my first system, Phyrax, and to its left you can see the 'friendly' outpost. You see that star between the border? That _was_ mine, I had three stations already on it, but the border changes defaulted it over to the new outpost. The AI's terrible outpost placement might be bad enough, but the change in borders and therefore property is the real kicker here. In any other situation this would be considered theft, or in a political setting, an act of war.

Now maybe this sort of behavior would make sense, say if this were a hostile expansionist faction, the sort of stupid city placement you see in Civ 5; but these are my supposed allies. The worst part is, unlike Civ V, the AI sees nothing wrong with this sort of settlement, and you can do nothing to deter it. It's doubly bad this sort of behavior happened so early, as it would be devastating to my long-term territory growth.

Now you might say "just attack them and take it back. Well, let's assume I could (I signed a "non-aggression pact" remember?) Since the AI sees nothing wrong with this situation, all the AI would interpret this an unprovoked war, and I would take severe warmongering penalties at the very start of the game, assuming I could follow through with a war.

So basically my only option is to sit there, while they start to dislike me for border friction, the irony.

Surely everyone can see how this scenario is flawed. This is just my personal opinion, but If anything I would say don't allow entire planetary systems to change over instantly (or if they do, make it considered an act of war/aggression), make AI more aware of their outpost/colony placement, and have diplomatic options to deal with these sorts of scenarios.

Pause the game and open the console:

Type /observe

Go to the system with their frontier outpost,
Click on the outpost,
Then open the console and type "/damage 2000"
Station is now dead,
Type "/play 0" to regain control of your empire
Unpause game and continue

Rince and repeat if they do it again.
 
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GamerSteve

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Seems like AI isn't programmed to see outpost building as act of aggression or can't "predict" that building it could take more systems aside from one, he's been targeting at.

And it should be (seen as an act of aggression). Putting outposts outside my current borders that create territory adjacent is one thing, and it will create border friction, which is fine. But if the AI colonizes a world or places an outpost, and that act causes planets previously owned by me, especially ones with stuff on them like mining outposts or defense stations, to come under their possession, this should be considered an act of war. It'd be like Canada taking over Michigan. What would the US response be?

It's hard as a human to estimate what will happen to borders with a frontier outpost being put up... I have a sense of the radius but not exactly. But the computer *can* calculate this at the moment you or it places one. When you place one, it should calculate if you are going to take control of (a) an already upgraded system, or (b) a colonizable world, from another empire and warn you that doing this may be considered an act of war. AI empires should reject and denounce you if weak and go to war if powerful. And the AI should be programmed to "know" that doing this is an act of war and that should figure into its computations (i.e., if I am way more powerful, it shouldn't be stupid enough to piss me off).

But the AI in general is not programmed to understand consequences. This is why when I am in a giant federation that has eaten half the galaxy, a small bordering neighbor with 5 systems and ranked at the bottom of the empire power list will send me a diplomatic insult or declare me a rival. It's incredibly stupid but whether they do it seems to only depend on what *they* care about. They do not appear to be programmed to take their opponent's position into account for anything other than a war declaration (by which I mean, they seem to flat out be unwilling to declare war if you are more powerful than they). But... they have no hesitation about doing stupid things like stealing your planets, insulting you, defensive-pacting with your obvious enemies, etc., that will provoke you into attacking them. It's really quite stupid and the devs should work on the AI in this regard.
 
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Comradical_v1

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I've never seen them throw a frontier outpost that far away from them at the start, it's always been close enough for the borders to connect.

Did you do anything to reduce the influence costs of the frontier outposts? I suppose that might accidentially allow them to put it further away at start.

You could use the console, select the outpost, and do damage_1000 to kill the FO.

I didn't change the influence settings at all, it was a fairly default start.

I did consider using console to just remove it, but I didn't know the commands. Thank you for enlightening me.
 

mangalore

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Borders in their fixed nature are sadly pretty broken ( they kinda work but imo are a very blunt method), best case in point if you play hyperlanes only but borders ignore lanes.

On a plus not I would say that I/ a human player would do what the AI did. I constantly squeeze the borders to push AI out of zones without a war or start quick wars solely aimed at removing their outposts and claim that territory for myself but overall the mechanic should be either more fuzzy (aka whoever builds mining stations somewhere owns that station) or stricter on a system basis (empires can formally integrate a system into their official border and can only lose that system in war.
 

Morbid Gerbil

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That's why we need more options over borders
diplomatic & military options, not one or the other but both.

space and it's embedded systems that fall under the influence of 2+ empires should be contestable

also gives more choices
ignore the border encroachment and have the standard 'border conflict' penalty
declare the space as contested with a heightened conflict penalty
go to war over it with border control as the stated war goal

this could add systems that have no colonised planets to the war goal list, even more so if that system has special or extra-high resources