AI encircling units and leaving them alone - No supply kills units?

[TheMoe]

I've read about the stealth nerf to right-clicking and moving units, so I decided to try and let the AI show me what it could do against the Soviet Union as Germany. I saw several encirclements and was impressed, then the AI left the isolated Soviet troops surrounded and never went in for the kill. Does the AI know something that I don't? Will lack of supply kill units if you just wait long enough? It was my undestanding that lack of supply reduced troop movement speed and introduced a host of penalties to offense and defense, and I thought there might have been some attrition, but I couldn't find it when I clicked on the encircled troops. Maybe I looked in the wrong place or didn't recognize it? Thanks!

 

[bitmode]

Does the AI know something that I don't?

No, it is just unreliable. The AI has the capability to reduce pockets but it does not always do so. Depending on the situation it can be better to attack right away or let the encirclement sit for a while. Organization attrition is paused during battle and in some very defensible situations your attacking units might deal less org damage than the attrition eventually would. But the AI is of course not smart enough to analyze this.

t was my undestanding that lack of supply reduced troop movement speed and introduced a host of penalties to offense and defense, and I thought there might have been some attrition, but I couldn't find it when I clicked on the encircled troops.

Sometimes there is a bug where encircled troops keep their supplies until the game is restarted. It takes a few days, but if the troops actually lose their supply source, they should start to collapse with an increasing rate of attrition. Eventually a division can cease to exist just from attrition.

Btw, the stealth nerf has been reduced in 1.9 and planning now only decays three times as fast as normal (compared to eight times before).

 

[TheMoe]

No, it is just unreliable. The AI has the capability to reduce pockets but it does not always do so. Depending on the situation it can be better to attack right away or let the encirclement sit for a while. Organization attrition is paused during battle and in some very defensible situations your attacking units might deal less org damage than the attrition eventually would. But the AI is of course not smart enough to analyze this.

Sometimes there is a bug where encircled troops keep their supplies until the game is restarted. It takes a few days, but if the troops actually lose their supply source, they should start to collapse with an increasing rate of attrition. Eventually a division can cease to exist just from attrition.

Btw, the stealth nerf has been reduced in 1.9 and planning now only decays three times as fast as normal (compared to eight times before).

Thanks for the assistance! It's good to know we can direct our troops again without incurring tremendous penalties, and also good to know it might be smart to let pockets simmer for a little while, before rushing in to finish them off. I did allow them to sit for a few weeks, then when the AI clearly wasn't going to engage the encircled troops, I manually directed the surrounding troops to finish the job. The enemy troops appeared to be very weak and they fell quite quickly.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Thanks for the assistance! It's good to know we can direct our troops again without incurring tremendous penalties, and also good to know it might be smart to let pockets simmer for a little while, before rushing in to finish them off. I did allow them to sit for a few weeks, then when the AI clearly wasn't going to engage the encircled troops, I manually directed the surrounding troops to finish the job. The enemy troops appeared to be very weak and they fell quite quickly.

If you are confident in winning the war, guard the pocket with 1 division per tile and dont killl it. You will get the equipment when they capitulate.
One could say, you are strengthening your enemy by killing pockets, because he gets 20% manpower back.

 

[bitmode]

guard the pocket with 1 division per tile and dont killl it. You will get the equipment when they capitulate.

Are you sure? If I remember correctly the units get disbanded on capitulation (except when not) but disbanding while encircled does not return equipment and only little manpower.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Are you sure? If I remember correctly the units get disbanded on capitulation (except when not) but disbanding while encircled does not return equipment and only little manpower.

//Edit: Misread your posting, forget this and read below #8.

Got it from there: -> https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Manpower#Loss

If a division gets overrun or disbanded/destroyed in an encirclement, 20% of its remaining manpower gets returned, the rest is lost.

 

[pheonicia]

If you leave a pocket long enough, you don't even have to guard anything but nearby victory points since it'll take the encircled divisions weeks to move from province to province. Eventually they'll have too little org to even move at all.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Are you sure? If I remember correctly the units get disbanded on capitulation (except when not) but disbanding while encircled does not return equipment and only little manpower.

Sorry, I misread your posting completely before. Forget my answer above.

Actually, I'm not sure.
I'm sure you get equipment of fielded enemy units when the enemy capitulates. I thought you also get equipment of encircled units, but I'm not sure and what you say makes sense.
I will test it in the evening.

 

[TheMoe]

If you are confident in winning the war, guard the pocket with 1 division per tile and dont killl it. You will get the equipment when they capitulate.
One could say, you are strengthening your enemy by killing pockets, because he gets 20% manpower back.

Very interesting! There are so many aspects to the game. Thanks.

 

[TheMoe]

If you leave a pocket long enough, you don't even have to guard anything but nearby victory points since it'll take the encircled divisions weeks to move from province to province. Eventually they'll have too little org to even move at all.

This makes perfect sense. If the front lines are moving quickly, I can just leave them. I've seen this on the other end while watching YouTube playthroughs. A guy invaded Alaska, but the US came and took the port, leaving his units out of supply. It took them forever to move from one province to another. Great point!

 

[Simon_9732495]

I will test it in the evening.

@bitmode It seems for me it doesn't matter for equipment captured after capitulation, if units are encircled at the moment of capitulation:

Equipment after capitulation with whole french army encircled:

Spoiler: Test1

Equipment after capitulation with whole french army NOT encircled:

Spoiler: Test2

So, yes, it seems you get the equipment of encircled divisions if you dont kill them and capitulate the country.

 

[TheMoe]

@bitmode It seems for me it doesn't matter for equipment captured after capitulation, if units are encircled at the moment of capitulation:

Equipment after capitulation with whole french army encircled:

Spoiler: Test1

View attachment 614932

Equipment after capitulation with whole french army NOT encircled:

Spoiler: Test2

View attachment 614933

So, yes, it seems you get the equipment of encircled divisions if you dont kill them and capitulate the country.

It's absolutely hilarious that someone can test this by encircling the entire French Army! The image of this made my morning! Thanks for testing as well!

 

[Simon_9732495]

It's absolutely hilarious that someone can test this by encircling the entire French Army! The image of this made my morning! Thanks for testing as well!

That was easy:

• Start game germany 1936
• ^ key to open console
• "AI off" to disable AI
• "tag fra" to switch to playing france
• all division to one army and fallback line to one tile on german border
• wait till all divisions have arrived
• "tag ger" to switch to playing germany
• "allowdiplo" to allow all diplomatic actions
• declare war on france
• walk around the units
• wait till all are out of supply and have the encirled status
• save
• v1 -> take paris
• v2 -> "tag fra" and take back some land to free them angain, supply them then "tag ger" and take paris

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So, yes, it seems you get the equipment of encircled divisions if you dont kill them and capitulate the country.

The differential is pretty small for the entire French army. Maybe what he said about only getting 20% of their equipment returned is being applied, after which you get some fraction of that 20%?

Note that in mod/meme games with enough maintenance company tech you can straight up get 20% equipment capture on units directly. 10% is available in a practical timeframe (13% with general xp grinding if you care enough).

 

[Simon_9732495]

The differential is pretty small for the entire French army. Maybe what he said about only getting 20% of their equipment returned is being applied, after which you get some fraction of that 20%?

Note that in mod/meme games with enough maintenance company tech you can straight up get 20% equipment capture on units directly. 10% is available in a practical timeframe (13% with general xp grinding if you care enough).

If encircled units are disbanded or killed you get back 20% manpower but 0% equipment.

I did another test here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/best-encirclement-time.1395906/post-26631916
You see a big difference whether you kill all encircled troops or not.

 

[TheMoe]

That was easy:

• Start game germany 1936
• ^ key to open console
• "AI off" to disable AI
• "tag fra" to switch to playing france
• all division to one army and fallback line to one tile on german border
• wait till all divisions have arrived
• "tag ger" to switch to playing germany
• "allowdiplo" to allow all diplomatic actions
• declare war on france
• walk around the units
• wait till all are out of supply and have the encirled status
• save
• v1 -> take paris
• v2 -> "tag fra" and take back some land to free them angain, supply them then "tag ger" and take paris

Fascinating! I'm glad there are folks out there like yourself that can test our hypothesis! Thanks for sharing.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If encircled units are disbanded or killed you get back 20% manpower but 0% equipment.

I did another test here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/best-encirclement-time.1395906/post-26631916
You see a big difference whether you kill all encircled troops or not.

I see, so you do get the equipment.

What is the base equipment rate for capitulated targets, assuming 100% warscore for one nation? I checked the wiki but it doesn't say anything about equipment capture on capitulation, even though we obviously get some.

 

[bitmode]

@Simon_9732495 in your screenshots it looks like you are not at war anymore. I think in that case all troops are treated as encircled regardless of where they were right before the peace conference.

If the enemy has allies that prevent an immediate PC, there should be a difference. Here's a similar bug report where I investigated this some time ago.