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General Karthos

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In my most recent example, I had four major factions. Three for electoral monarchy in my three primary Kingdoms (Ireland, Scotland, England) and the ever present increase Council Power. I don't know what the odds on this are, but they ALL fired on the same day. Looking at who is in the Council, I realize that there's little overlap between factions. About 80% of my realm (which includes most of Spain and Jerusalem) will be in rebellion if I refuse all four demands.

The electoral factions are not a major concern, since I am the Emperor of Britannia, and will rule over the Kingdoms regardless of who's in charge. That said, I like to have dynasty members in charge of my primary Kingdoms, and those Kingdoms will be far more likely to rebel if I let them go. I also happen to have about 3,000 Gold. (I had 10,000 about ten years ago, but I have been relentelessly upgrading the Castles in my Demesne since then, but I keep 3,000 in reserve.) Miraculously, the Duchy of Lancaster does not rebel, and provides another 1500. That said, I'm looking at over 75k troops in revolt, and no path to victory.

I know there's no way I can possibly win this war alone. I could ragequit, since the odds of all four rebellions firing on the same day is astronomical. Instead, I spend much of my treasury on mercenaries, also forfeiting much of my income (the final months of the war will see me borrowing from the moneylenders).

My retinues plus my desmesne forces come to approximately 18,000 soldiers. I manage to stomp a few stacks while the mercenaries build up to maximum morale.

Over the next ten years, as much as possible, I keep my retinue out of battle, and set them not to reinforce, as the costs would be prohibitive. Those ten years take possibly as long to play out as the first 200 years of my game, because even with the mercenaries, I am hopelessly outnumbered. I can only engage in England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland at first, and those cause massive losses among the mercenaries, but I cannot afford to release them and hire other mercenary groups, because I don't have enough money. I do manage to subdue England and Scotland's demands for electoral monarchy, but Ireland is still (if only barely) holding on, and I've managed to stave off the increased Council Power, but they won't accept a white peace, and they keep capturing my holdings in Spain and Jersualem.

And that's when all hell breaks loose. Three religious uprisings in Spain, one in Jerusalem, and a peasant uprising in England. Troops flock to the banners of my foes, and my country is nearly out of money.

I would overcome eventually, but it would cripple my nation for my ruler's entire reign. It took a total of 25 years to win the civil wars, and he'd be 70 before things finally got back to normal.

When has the AI totally screwed you, and have you overcome? Have you acceded to their demands? Or have you fought and lost? Or have you been so overcome by rage as to quit the game out of frustration?
 
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RagingJaws

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I thought this was a call for advice on what to do. Seems like you handled it just fine. Will say that 3k gold is a small treasury for an Empire, though I suppose it's slightly dependent on when Imperial titles were gained and whether there was a lot of demesne shuffling. I've noticed a lot of players run with small gold funds, never understood it.

But to your question, straight up game overs are rare and the only reason I've had a game file end "unfinished". Almost as rare as completely finished games as I only stop playing a particular file after accomplishing something, whether it be an achievement run or trying something new (Coptic Italy anyone?). Revolts from vassals are simply opportunities to improve your position in your own Kingdom, while outside intervention is eventual. Sometimes there is something to be garnered, other times it's a step back. Capitulating is not always the wrong choice, everything is depending on the overall situation.

That said, Conclave has made everything more...tenuous, more potential wrenches in plans. I don't think I've had so many vassals jailed outside of RPing a paranoid lunatic. Still effective, just a little tedious.
 
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Dahoota

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This sounds to me like the late game mechanics behaving the way they are supposed to - without them the late game becomes boring as hell.

That being said I would fight them. With a realm so far flung, my experience has been fighting these kinds of rebellions is very doable - use ships to haul your troops around quickly by sea the destroy the divided AI forces. The AI will probably attrition down their troops marching them over land.

Even then if you lose it simply adds more challenge to game as you claw yourself back to power. This is much how late stage Empires often have been through history - entire generations spent dealing with internal strife - hell the Romans spent the better part of the 3rd century in various states of civil war.

Holding onto any semblance of council power once your realm hits the 300 realm size becomes (intentionally) very difficult.
 
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SaphireSeas

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Lets tell you a little story.

I was the Despot of Sicily under the ERE, with all of De-Jure Sicily and Latium.
I had managed to successfully gain a claim to the Empire, and was working towards the inevitable revolt. Suddenly, an Overthrow faction fired at about 10k ERE v 13k revolt
Great I thought, and demanded the title. At the time, I had about 10k myself.
a year later, the other revolter white peaces out.
I am now at 8k v ~15k.
Still, I fought on. but it was a losing battle.
My 8k stack was wiped three times down to a measly 3k.
I was furious - there was no way I could physically win the war
I considered surrender
Suddenly, a Paulcian Uprising strikes...o_Oon Malta?!!
:eek::mad:
Again fury, shock.

after five more years, I realise something I'm at -100% and I can't sue for peace...

Malta is occupied...

the War continued.
21 years after the beginning of the revolt, the maltese paulcians were crushed, the Empire was down to 8k, defending against the Abbasids and I was at +50% warscore
I had occupied Cyprus and the Crimea, an held on and recaptured my own sicilian lands. Battles were accounting for -90% of the warscore, But I was winning.

Finally the idiot Emperor would accept a white peace....

BUT I WAS WINNING!!!!
HOW DARE THIS UNPOPULAR TWERP NOT SURRENDER!!!!

For 3 more years, we fought. By the end, the old Emperor had died, but on we fought.

Then, at 80% warscore, I died in battle.:mad::( Ah, the futility of war.

Overcomming is not always possible. In the short term, surrender is the only option, to fail and fold. Rage-quitting solves nothing.
At least that's my opinion

Story has a good ending though. My next two characters were murdered, at least one by my sister, who inherited the throne, the claim, money(plus jews to loan and expel if necessary), and the ambitious trait.:cool:

That war didn't reach two years.:D
 

Sirrobert1

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I would just surrender to half the factions, then try to fight of 1 or 2 of them. Probably try to fight the first faction, maybe the second, and just fold on the next 2 as they trigger
 

Choombi

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It's generally best to fold to council authority factions since you can just undo the damage 5 years later, In your place I would only fight the elective faction, it sucks when some random vassal steals your throne.
 
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To be honest, as bad as it sounds, I never let the AI win: be it reloading a save or simply using the console. I always have this thought in the back of my mind, that if I lose something to the AI with it being already stronger than me or equal, there is no way I will get it back later. The odds will be skewed towards the AI and then the slippery slope happens. Of course I'm talking about external wars.

Regarding internal wars, I didn't like the Council mechanincs since it removed the "Stable" aspect of a realm. When trying to play Ironman I had 4 consecutive internal rebellions that drained all manpower I had and left me with a headache after it. Never returned to that save.

You may disagree with what I want to experience in my games, but in games that take so much of your time I'm a very sore loser. It always feels like all that time was wasted after a crippling defeat. So I never let my wars put me on the losing side.

I'm slowly trying to regain what I picked up after first trying a Paradox GS, when I had no idea about the console and had only the careful planning in my head. After I discovered the console and what it can do, the games became satisfying but boring. So now I'm trying to purge the desire to use it in any games I really care about.

I'm also slowly trying to learn to accept defeat when possible, but still feel great unwillingness to stand down.

So yeah, something between Fail and Ragequit is how I currently feel about losing to AI.
 
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StarSword

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I thought this was a call for advice on what to do. Seems like you handled it just fine. Will say that 3k gold is a small treasury for an Empire, though I suppose it's slightly dependent on when Imperial titles were gained and whether there was a lot of demesne shuffling. I've noticed a lot of players run with small gold funds, never understood it.

But to your question, straight up game overs are rare and the only reason I've had a game file end "unfinished". Almost as rare as completely finished games as I only stop playing a particular file after accomplishing something, whether it be an achievement run or trying something new (Coptic Italy anyone?). Revolts from vassals are simply opportunities to improve your position in your own Kingdom, while outside intervention is eventual. Sometimes there is something to be garnered, other times it's a step back. Capitulating is not always the wrong choice, everything is depending on the overall situation.

That said, Conclave has made everything more...tenuous, more potential wrenches in plans. I don't think I've had so many vassals jailed outside of RPing a paranoid lunatic. Still effective, just a little tedious.
Pretty much this. I had an elective succession blow up in one of my held kingdoms as Emperor of Alba during this evening's session. Which I took as a sign that it was time to quit with wars of expansion for a while and focus on the homefront (especially since the revolt opened the way for an adventurer claimant in the Knights of Calatrava to declare his intentions).

There's been a couple times I've had uprisings blow up when I was distracted. I find that the best approach is to actually surrender to peasants if I'm not in a position to smash them, because it costs 100 prestige in exchange for making a weak new count I can then reconquer with the de jure CB once I've got my shit together.

But hands down, the worst one ever was in my second try at Aed Mac Gabrain, the Petty King of Dal Riata (d_isles) in Charlemagne. My asshole half-brother who I made the Chief of Airer Godel factioned to take over the kingdom, and then King of Pictland Urguist Circinn joined the war on his side. I ragequit. Next time I tried that start, I made sure to keep a reserve of prestige so I could call a tribal army, and I kicked the everloving shit out of the Picts when they tried a de jure war on me.
 

General Karthos

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With a realm so far flung, my experience has been fighting these kinds of rebellions is very doable - use ships to haul your troops around quickly by sea the destroy the divided AI forces. The AI will probably attrition down their troops marching them over land.

Even then if you lose it simply adds more challenge to game as you claw yourself back to power. This is much how late stage Empires often have been through history - entire generations spent dealing with internal strife - hell the Romans spent the better part of the 3rd century in various states of civil war.

Holding onto any semblance of council power once your realm hits the 300 realm size becomes (intentionally) very difficult.

Yeah, I'm at a realm larger than that, and still hold absolute Council Power. I know that eventually a faction will come that I'll have to fold to, but I'm RPing a long string of ambitious leaders.... No ambitious leader would simply fold to a faction.

To the earlier part, that usually works, but as far as I can determine, the AI doesn't know how to use ships.* I spend a lot of time and money making sure that the leader of the faction is in the British Isles and that as few vassals outside the homeland revolt. I could (and have) sent my armies to other realms, but crushing the armies in the British Isles and occupying the revolt leader's homeland is generally the most effective strategy to dealing with these revolts.

*With regards to revolts. In other situations such as external invasions, they KIND OF know how to use ships. Just not very well. Instead of unifying all their armies and landing far from my armies, as I do when I'm running an invasion, they tend land piecemeal in provinces that neighbor my large forces. This is also why, even when I have the fewest forces, I tend to win the fabulous prizes that the Pope gives out after crusades. (Just for you, a brand new carrrrrrrrolingian kingdom!")
 
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Yeah, I'm at a realm larger than that, and still hold absolute Council Power. I know that eventually a faction will come that I'll have to fold to, but I'm RPing a long string of ambitious leaders.... No ambitious leader would simply fold to a faction.

To the earlier part, that usually works, but as far as I can determine, the AI doesn't know how to use ships.* I spend a lot of time and money making sure that the leader of the faction is in the British Isles and that as few vassals outside the homeland revolt. I could (and have) sent my armies to other realms, but crushing the armies in the British Isles and occupying the revolt leader's homeland is generally the most effective strategy to dealing with these revolts.

*With regards to revolts. In other situations such as external invasions, they KIND OF know how to use ships. Just not very well. Instead of unifying all their armies and landing far from my armies, as I do when I'm running an invasion, they tend land piecemeal in provinces that neighbor my large forces. This is also why, even when I have the fewest forces, I tend to win the fabulous prizes that the Pope gives out after crusades. (Just for you, a brand new carrrrrrrrolingian kingdom!")
During the opening stages of the Irish Reconquest of Spain, I used the huge navy I had from controlling Alba to reposition forces. Because my ally was distracted with another war, I at one point tricked an Umayyad stack into attacking into a province where he was besieging a castle. Between that and the defensive terrain modifier, we sent them running right back to Spain with their tails between their legs. After that it was mostly downhill.

Fun times...
 

Sirrobert1

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Yeah, I'm at a realm larger than that, and still hold absolute Council Power. I know that eventually a faction will come that I'll have to fold to, but I'm RPing a long string of ambitious leaders.... No ambitious leader would simply fold to a faction.

To the earlier part, that usually works, but as far as I can determine, the AI doesn't know how to use ships.* I spend a lot of time and money making sure that the leader of the faction is in the British Isles and that as few vassals outside the homeland revolt. I could (and have) sent my armies to other realms, but crushing the armies in the British Isles and occupying the revolt leader's homeland is generally the most effective strategy to dealing with these revolts.

*With regards to revolts. In other situations such as external invasions, they KIND OF know how to use ships. Just not very well. Instead of unifying all their armies and landing far from my armies, as I do when I'm running an invasion, they tend land piecemeal in provinces that neighbor my large forces. This is also why, even when I have the fewest forces, I tend to win the fabulous prizes that the Pope gives out after crusades. (Just for you, a brand new carrrrrrrrolingian kingdom!")
There's generally another reason why the player wins crusades. Sieges give a disproportionally high amount of crusade points, compared to actual war points. And the player is the only one capable of sitting still on a siege, while the AI tends to run off chasing stacks of 100 man that newly form (instead of splitting his army and staying on the siege while chasing around with the rest).

I have seen a crusade utterly fail because of this behaviour. The Catholic armies had crushed Muslim spain, but they just couldn't sit still to siege even a single holding, always running after newly spawning units. Eventually the 'defender holds all the land' bonus got so big that the Muslims won.
 
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General Karthos

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There's generally another reason why the player wins crusades. Sieges give a disproportionally high amount of crusade points, compared to actual war points. And the player is the only one capable of sitting still on a siege, while the AI tends to run off chasing stacks of 100 man that newly form (instead of splitting his army and staying on the siege while chasing around with the rest).

I have seen a crusade utterly fail because of this behaviour. The Catholic armies had crushed Muslim spain, but they just couldn't sit still to siege even a single holding, always running after newly spawning units. Eventually the 'defender holds all the land' bonus got so big that the Muslims won.

Regardless of the reasons, I get the land, the trips, and the free car. Which creates problems, because I have active rebellions five months' travel from my homeland. Mercenaries and Holy Orders won't help there, and my loyalists just kind of sit there and let their holdings get seized. I can't even imprison them for incompetence.

I'd very much like to use the Darth Vader style of management. "You have failed me for the last time, Duke Whoever of Jerusalem. You control the fief now, Duke Someone Else."
 
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Sirrobert1

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Regardless of the reasons, I get the land, the trips, and the free car. Which creates problems, because I have active rebellions five months' travel from my homeland. Mercenaries and Holy Orders won't help there, and my loyalists just kind of sit there and let their holdings get seized. I can't even imprison them for incompetence.

I'd very much like to use the Darth Vader style of management. "You have failed me for the last time, Duke Whoever of Jerusalem. You control the fief now, Duke Someone Else."
Did you give them enough land to defend themselves? They only protect their own land, don't care about their neighbours. So a big duke might be able to defend his land, but individual counts won't.
 

General Karthos

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Did you give them enough land to defend themselves? They only protect their own land, don't care about their neighbours. So a big duke might be able to defend his land, but individual counts won't.

In Spain, most of the country consists of powerful Dukes including some very powerful ones. (To the point where a little assassination and creative revocation of vassals; thank you Imperial Administration helps.) Jerusalem consists of four Dukes, and I just decided to hand it over to a Viceroy of my Dynasty with the skills needed to be a decent Councillor. He's also too distant from the throne to be a pretender, and too loyal (read: content) to rebel.
 

nyah

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Some people (myself included) don't like losing and sometimes you get screwed over sufficiently early in a game that it's better to just restart.

We can all play the game however we like of course, but I think that restarting is the same as losing.

The most fun I've had with this game is when everything has gone wrong, but that might just be me.
 
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We can all play the game however we like of course, but I think that restarting is the same as losing.

The most fun I've had with this game is when everything has gone wrong, but that might just be me.
That's how I do it yes. If a major decision ends up screwing me (like during my current game of Erik the Heathen, I pressed for the Kingdom to early, and got eaten by Norway and Denmark), I reload it and chalk it up as a loss.

You wouldn't believe how often I lose a game of XCOM before I win it.