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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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So I understand that the AI is coded to "spam" divisions because if it didn't then it would lose, and I also know this is a common topic. That being said, there NEEDS to limit to number of divisions a nation can field. Little El Salvador shouldn't be able to field 40 dang divisions. It gets to the point where in some games the main problem the player has is that there a just so. many. divisions. on the map that if hurts the games performance. It also hurts the strategy portion of the game, where every division is precious and having to peel couple off off of one front is serious decision. AI Division spam has become such a problem that if I ever stopped playing this game; this would be the reason.

The AI spam issue isn't the best solution to the problem. As a developer you don't want the AI to lose every time against the player, its just bad; however, since this is a historical game, divisions ABSOLUTELY NEED to have move value rather than being numbers. This is Paradox's crux. They have to make a game that can technically simulate history, but they also have to make a game that allows the player a relatively different outcome every time. In doing this, they found that the AI need help winning the game. To this end they coded it to spam divisions to help. This is best they could do as a "band-aide". While not the ideal solution, it helps, the AI. To the player, its frustrating, enraging, and confusing. In trying to avoid repetition, Paradox forced the players into a game of encirclement. Every game comes down to how big your encirclement are and how many you have. It becomes numbing at a certain point. Every game I create the same tank template, and work to encircle a different, poor nation's divisions. At a certain point, it loses its fun. For a beginner, they could easily get discouraged by the sheer number of divisions in the late game that it could get them frustrated or confused as to how the AI got so many. I'm seriously hoping the devs address this in 'Barbarossa' as a Soviet improvement would great time to address army logistics and numbers. Personally I feel like that if this problem isn't addressed soon, its going to possibly get worse, as more nations get manpower buffs, thus allowing even larger armies. The problem needs to be solved now, before it gets worse.

1) Manpower laws are tied to a division cap. - As you drain your manpower, you can recruit more divisions; but this is the side affect, as you keep going you'll have less and less manpower to reinforce. (I would decrease the time for manpower reinforcement (To simulate these men undergoing basic training and begin deployed) (To prevent changing manpower laws from feeling like an injecting of steroids to your nation))

2) A solid, hard, coded, cap to divisions - A solid numerical cap to divisions for both the player and AI, that can grow as you grow. You cannot have more divisions than the cap.

3) A "force-limit" - This force limit would be based on civilian factories and national manpower. Exceeding the force limit would have economic and logistical penalties.

4) More solid caps to manpower laws - AI likes to "jump the gun" on manpower laws. This in turn allows them to early-on spam. Blocking increases in manpower laws until you have 1% manpower left, should help delay the division spam.
 
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ThePHD

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I doubt the AI's ability to efficiently plug in all the holes in their territory if you limit their number of divisions. They already struggle with this despite having massive armies. Even with a relatively small army, it's very easy to find exploitable weaknesses in the AI's defenses. Especially true when you have strong tank divisions and air superiority. This will just make an already easy game easier unless Paradox has some sort of astronomical breakthrough in creating intelligent AI. There would need to be a massive overhaul of the AI itself to make this work IMO. It's not something I expect at this point in the game's development.
 
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DGuller

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Division spam is the best chance AI has of defending itself against the player. I often quit my games in disgust when it gets to that point and the game crawls along in fits and starts.
 

Áurum

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So I understand that the AI is coded to "spam" divisions because if it didn't then it would lose, and I also know this is a common topic. That being said, there NEEDS to limit to number of divisions a nation can field. Little El Salvador shouldn't be able to field 40 dang divisions. It gets to the point where in some games the main problem the player has is that there a just so. many. divisions. on the map that if hurts the games performance. It also hurts the strategy portion of the game, where every division is precious and having to peel couple off off of one front is serious decision. AI Division spam has become such a problem that if I ever stopped playing this game; this would be the reason.

The AI spam issue isn't the best solution to the problem. As a developer you don't want the AI to lose every time against the player, its just bad; however, since this is a historical game, divisions ABSOLUTELY NEED to have move value rather than being numbers. This is Paradox's crux. They have to make a game that can technically simulate history, but they also have to make a game that allows the player a relatively different outcome every time. In doing this, they found that the AI need help winning the game. To this end they coded it to spam divisions to help. This is best they could do as a "band-aide". While not the ideal solution, it helps, the AI. To the player, its frustrating, enraging, and confusing. In trying to avoid repetition, Paradox forced the players into a game of encirclement. Every game comes down to how big your encirclement are and how many you have. It becomes numbing at a certain point. Every game I create the same tank template, and work to encircle a different, poor nation's divisions. At a certain point, it loses its fun. For a beginner, they could easily get discouraged by the sheer number of divisions in the late game that it could get them frustrated or confused as to how the AI got so many. I'm seriously hoping the devs address this in 'Barbarossa' as a Soviet improvement would great time to address army logistics and numbers. Personally I feel like that if this problem isn't addressed soon, its going to possibly get worse, as more nations get manpower buffs, thus allowing even larger armies. The problem needs to be solved now, before it gets worse.

1) Manpower laws are tied to a division cap. - As you drain your manpower, you can recruit more divisions; but this is the side affect, as you keep going you'll have less and less manpower to reinforce. (I would decrease the time for manpower reinforcement (To simulate these men undergoing basic training and begin deployed) (To prevent changing manpower laws from feeling like an injecting of steroids to your nation))

2) A solid, hard, coded, cap to divisions - A solid numerical cap to divisions for both the player and AI, that can grow as you grow. You cannot have more divisions than the cap.

3) A "force-limit" - This force limit would be based on civilian factories and national manpower. Exceeding the force limit would have economic and logistical penalties.

4) More solid caps to manpower laws - AI likes to "jump the gun" on manpower laws. This in turn allows them to early-on spam. Blocking increases in manpower laws until you have 1% manpower left, should help delay the division spam.
I agree. In Kaiserreich, for example, they implemented a soft cap based on owned factories. If you go over the limit, you get harsh penalties. The AI will never cross the limit, but the player can. I have never accidentally crossed the limit myself, so it's not too low, but it prevents an AI Canada from fielding 150 divisions because it can't win against the International and it goes to Scraping the Barrel to get more and more manpower.
 

Jon1972

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I agree. In Kaiserreich, for example, they implemented a soft cap based on owned factories. If you go over the limit, you get harsh penalties. The AI will never cross the limit, but the player can. I have never accidentally crossed the limit myself, so it's not too low, but it prevents an AI Canada from fielding 150 divisions because it can't win against the International and it goes to Scraping the Barrel to get more and more manpower.

There's two circumstances in which I've crossed the limit by a small amount.
1. Princely Federation - Refuse reforms path - when the states revolt the limit decreases significantly a few days later. Also it gets reduced again when BHC demands a state during it.
2. As Left KMT - during the Anqing round I on purpose took one of the spawning militia decisions that put me one division over the limit.

Overall though while it does speed up the game - it made the AIs much worse -
1. Germany is the one most impacted by the mobilization cap of 100 at partial - the AI needs many more divisions before 2WK starts. 150 would be better for the AI at partial.
2. This is interacting poorly with the KR post war demobilization timed missions - Human can easily time the next war in China so that those missions abort before the stability loss but AI Fengetian has demobilized itself back to partial.
 

Vin55

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So I understand that the AI is coded to "spam" divisions because if it didn't then it would lose, and I also know this is a common topic. That being said, there NEEDS to limit to number of divisions a nation can field. Little El Salvador shouldn't be able to field 40 dang divisions. It gets to the point where in some games the main problem the player has is that there a just so. many. divisions. on the map that if hurts the games performance. It also hurts the strategy portion of the game, where every division is precious and having to peel couple off off of one front is serious decision. AI Division spam has become such a problem that if I ever stopped playing this game; this would be the reason.

The AI spam issue isn't the best solution to the problem. As a developer you don't want the AI to lose every time against the player, its just bad; however, since this is a historical game, divisions ABSOLUTELY NEED to have move value rather than being numbers. This is Paradox's crux. They have to make a game that can technically simulate history, but they also have to make a game that allows the player a relatively different outcome every time. In doing this, they found that the AI need help winning the game. To this end they coded it to spam divisions to help. This is best they could do as a "band-aide". While not the ideal solution, it helps, the AI. To the player, its frustrating, enraging, and confusing. In trying to avoid repetition, Paradox forced the players into a game of encirclement. Every game comes down to how big your encirclement are and how many you have. It becomes numbing at a certain point. Every game I create the same tank template, and work to encircle a different, poor nation's divisions. At a certain point, it loses its fun. For a beginner, they could easily get discouraged by the sheer number of divisions in the late game that it could get them frustrated or confused as to how the AI got so many. I'm seriously hoping the devs address this in 'Barbarossa' as a Soviet improvement would great time to address army logistics and numbers. Personally I feel like that if this problem isn't addressed soon, its going to possibly get worse, as more nations get manpower buffs, thus allowing even larger armies. The problem needs to be solved now, before it gets worse.

1) Manpower laws are tied to a division cap. - As you drain your manpower, you can recruit more divisions; but this is the side affect, as you keep going you'll have less and less manpower to reinforce. (I would decrease the time for manpower reinforcement (To simulate these men undergoing basic training and begin deployed) (To prevent changing manpower laws from feeling like an injecting of steroids to your nation))

2) A solid, hard, coded, cap to divisions - A solid numerical cap to divisions for both the player and AI, that can grow as you grow. You cannot have more divisions than the cap.

3) A "force-limit" - This force limit would be based on civilian factories and national manpower. Exceeding the force limit would have economic and logistical penalties.

4) More solid caps to manpower laws - AI likes to "jump the gun" on manpower laws. This in turn allows them to early-on spam. Blocking increases in manpower laws until you have 1% manpower left, should help delay the division spam.
I would just code it that nations without focus tree aka south-america will just have a reasanable max of 10 as one of the smallernations and the bigger aka Brasil and Argentina will go to max 50. The same goes for tibet and the other 2 nations withouth war participation. Also I think you need to get stab hit when you loose too much, so as Canada if you losse over 300k or so or new-zealand loosing 100k should give stab hits, I dont think in real life that they would continue to fight with that big of a loss and limit the divisions the ai spams.
 

Vlad123

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One mod limits (fixedly) the divisions for each nation (germany 150, the ussr 250 etc) while another mod (damn I never remember the names) adds: food, ammunition ... all equipment with low reliability , that is, it often breaks (to simulate that it is consumed) so it indirectly acts as a cap for the divisions (if I can only supply 100 divisions I don't start producing another 20 if I'm already at 10) if I'm not mistaken, the AI stops produce if he can't supply his divisions well (besides the fact that if you don't give them the equipment in training they can't even train, or at least they are trained MUCH slower)
 

TalyonUngol

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Except... this isn't a historical game. This is a sandbox. Trying to force the game to follow historical rules is a slippery slope and just dangerous. That being said, yes AI division spam is a problem, but the other problem is... the battlefield is massive. You're going to have to reduce the size of the map, the size of provinces just to make this work. Just making a hard cap on divisions just isn't feasible in the current state of the game.
 
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PurpulaPhoenixum53

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Except... this isn't a historical game. This is a sandbox.

Its a historical sandbox. You can do whatever you want within the historical period. However, there does need to be some grounding in actual history. Austria having 45 divisions is ridiculous, and should be much more difficult for the AI to pull off, if not impossible.
 
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Laffertytig

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I agree. In Kaiserreich, for example, they implemented a soft cap based on owned factories. If you go over the limit, you get harsh penalties. The AI will never cross the limit, but the player can. I have never accidentally crossed the limit myself, so it's not too low, but it prevents an AI Canada from fielding 150 divisions because it can't win against the International and it goes to Scraping the Barrel to get more and more manpower.

Are there any other mods who implement anything similar?
 

TalyonUngol

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Its a historical sandbox. You can do whatever you want within the historical period. However, there does need to be some grounding in actual history. Austria having 45 divisions is ridiculous, and should be much more difficult for the AI to pull off, if not impossible.

If you're talking about the AI fielding divisions... fine. Make the game easier for me, not that its needed, but don't try to limit a players potiential, otherwise, why teh fuck play any Minor. Might as well throw out all of the new focus trees for Greece and Turkey if you do that.

And no, I do not agree that we should stop the AI from spamming divisions with a hard cap. What they should do is get the AI to start building proper division templates and then the AI division count will be smaller since they should, theoretically, field less divisions.

And this idea that its a historical sandbox is still kind of... not true. I mean, alot of the alt-history in this game wouldn't be feasible in the time period but we still have it, which I think is good. More options, more fun, etc. Historical accuracy and gameplay don't really mix all that well. Historical accuracy tends to remove alot of gameplay options. Asking for more historical accuracy is dangerous because how much historical accuracy is too much and how much is too little. very dangerous balancing act.

That being said, yes the late game division spam is bad, but they need to work on the AI first before attempting any sort of division spam stopping. Not to mention they can't prevent players from building more divisions. Not good.
 
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