AI Discussion Thread

[unmerged(37697)]

An obvious topic, but an ominously lacking one

I've read a lot about the various new mechanisms and concepts present in EUIII, and whilst generally impressed, I question how the AI will be able to undergo such intelligence.

For example - leaders - we now know we can effectively make them by creating one whenever we like, should we have the correct prerequisites; the same applies for explorers, and so on.

How will the AI make leaders and explorers? How often will they do so, and is this moddable?

I'm all for minors to have great leaders - I think it would be fantastic if you have a little nation in your alliance, who, whilst their army is small and meagre compared to yours, have a fantastic little general with as much punch as three French marhals - but I want France, Spain, England and the Ottomans, etc. to have more, and generally better, ones.

Despite having broadband, I'm one of those odd little chaps who plays almost only single player - partly 'cus my router makes it hellish to connect and play with anyone, ever - and thus such things are of great importance to me.

The one thing I'd absolutely love to be able to do is be playing a game and see an army of 4,000 from Hesse defeat a force of 17,000 from France purely because of their uber-leader, who although 'ahistorical' would be one of the greatest leaders in that current world/game

This is by no means a leader thread, it's just one example I thought of that would be important when it comes to doing the AI files.

Oh, and as I mentioned it, will multiplayer be easier? I hope so! One of the few games I have no problems playing online whatsoever, is Empire Earth II. Not sure why that is, but it seems to set itself up automatically for multiplayer and plays fine with anyone.

I'd love that kind of ease of play with EUIII, if possible!

 

[kolmy]

One of the few games I have no problems playing online whatsoever, is Empire Earth II. Not sure why that is, but it seems to set itself up automatically for multiplayer and plays fine with anyone.

I'd love that kind of ease of play with EUIII, if possible!

I've play in online and is great, very easy to play, the only bad thing is beeing so slow. (one of my games is has stopped for 2 minutes, which was not so funny at all) So please Paradox, impleament this-

 

[unmerged(6160)]

Just please don't make the AI build and keep a million man armies in 1500! I don't know how Burgundy didn't go bankrupt in my last game of EU2 (especially since they kept throwing money into their technology)

Also, please make the AI refortify provinces that have lost a fortress (Paris and Orleans both are lacking fortresses in my current game)

I think those are the only 2 things I can think of at the moment

 

[Hyzhenhok]

Paradox has experience making AI for complicated games -- games even more complicated than it appears (I hope) EU3 will be. Given that we had at least partially competent AI in Victoria, HOI2 and Crusader Kings, I think it will be safe to say the AI in EU3 will at least be able to keep us challenged for our first campaign or two.

 

[Daunus]

I hope the ai fights wars more effectively in eu3.

Also and this is just as important, ai countries should start ganging up on a country which is becoming a threat, even if it has not got much badboy.

 

[unmerged(8915)]

Just please don't make the AI build and keep a million man armies in 1500! I don't know how Burgundy didn't go bankrupt in my last game of EU2 (especially since they kept throwing money into their technology)

AI countries dont pay army maintenance costs. thats why little hessen can have an army of 50.000 just standing around for ever

 

[unmerged(8915)]

I hope the ai fights wars more effectively in eu3.

Also and this is just as important, ai countries should start ganging up on a country which is becoming a threat, even if it has not got much badboy.

raise AI aggressiveness further up. thats one thing i like about eu. if a player nation becomes a pariah the dows start flooding you! good luck fighting back. of course, the AI will (not yet) replace a human, even despite the best efforts (Galactic Civs is a great example).

 

[Spricar]

Diplomatic AI could use a lot of work in my opinion...At least comparing to EU2. I do hope that AI will be somehow improved so we won't have to count on scripted events/DOWs and other diplomatic actions...

 

[hjarg]

An obvious topic, but an ominously lacking one

Main reason for it: what's here to discuss?

We all agree that AI must be up to task, manage wars, economy, diplomacy and colonization properly etc etc.

Unless we all have the game and can say something in terms of: AI did really stupid move like this and like that. Look, the sweden ai file could be updated with this parameter, the results would be much better. Until then, we have nothing much to discuss.

 

[Registered]

raise AI aggressiveness further up. thats one thing i like about eu. if a player nation becomes a pariah the dows start flooding you! good luck fighting back. of course, the AI will (not yet) replace a human, even despite the best efforts (Galactic Civs is a great example).

But there should be more sense to it. eg When i am playing Muscovy and have been somewhat bad, why does Pommern declare war on me? I have not done anything to them, they have zero interest in my region, they're not even sending any troops to fight me. All they do is annoy and refuse to make peace.

 

[Sidney]

AI countries dont pay army maintenance costs. thats why little hessen can have an army of 50.000 just standing around for ever

Item #1 on the hit list of things that have to change.

There's nothing more potent that facing an alliance of minor German states since each crummy little country can wield massive armies.

 

[Sidney]

But there should be more sense to it. eg When i am playing Muscovy and have been somewhat bad, why does Pommern declare war on me? I have not done anything to them, they have zero interest in my region, they're not even sending any troops to fight me. All they do is annoy and refuse to make peace.

There's that and a several other issues:

1. Extra-regional war. Like you describe, they're annoying and, becuase of the odd rules on a white peace, can just drag on forvere becuase the oppoentnet gets some moxie up and "invades" with 2k men every few years to keep things going.

2. Proportionality. I'm sick of having one province states DoW my major power. What the heck are they thinking? Worse, this just opens the door for the AI to rapidly grow out of control. It might be the #1 reason that all the minor states in Germany are gone within 50 years most of the time.

3. Peace with orphans. Example, Spain takes something in Pommern. Brandberg gets into war with Spain, Branenberg can never take Pommern becuase in order to reclaim any province you must take two and they won't build a navy to invade Spain to take a province in order to take Pommern.

 

[Green Giant]

Make the AI matter thats the key.

If the player feels like nothing really happens in the game without the players input the game gets old fast. It become a toy rather than a simulation. In EU2, with the exception of German minors getting annexed by Poland and France, the game stayed relatived static from beggining to end. There was always a shake-up at the beggining but then things got stale. Colonization never got close full swing. The Ottomans & Muhgals petered out quickly. Poland never experienced anything close to partition. Siberia was left empty. Spain, France, and England never warred and when they did nothing happened. I could go on all night.

The AI needs to at least be competent enough to make things happen. After that I'm realistic enough to know that the AI probably won't be a real challenge to an experienced player.

 

[unmerged(37697)]

Make the AI matter thats the key.

If the player feels like nothing really happens in the game without the players input the game gets old fast. It become a toy rather than a simulation. In EU2, with the exception of German minors getting annexed by Poland and France, the game stayed relatived static from beggining to end. There was always a shake-up at the beggining but then things got stale. Colonization never got close full swing. The Ottomans & Muhgals petered out quickly. Poland never experienced anything close to partition. Siberia was left empty. Spain, France, and England never warred and when they did nothing happened. I could go on all night.

The AI needs to at least be competent enough to make things happen. After that I'm realistic enough to know that the AI probably won't be a real challenge to an experienced player.

Here, here

Mind you, from what I gather, the AI will be a lot better, as they have borrowed the best (let's hope not the worst as well) bits from previous P'dox gamaes.

 

[Rotten Venetic]

As long as the AI doesn't have to cheat to keep up, all is well.

Of course that's easier said then done. To keep up the AI must know to promote officials fast, not mint unless absolutely necessary, manage their armies in war and their economy both in war and peace, anticipate, judge size, make profitable peaces, colonize fast, convert, change slider settings and now bribe cardinals, juggle national ideas, cultures, hire leaders and so forth. What a mess.

I imagine the AI will not be able to do 1/2 of this. Because in EUII it does only 0/2 of it. It doesn't even keep up if it cheats.

 

[Spricar]

Here, here

Mind you, from what I gather, the AI will be a lot better, as they have borrowed the best (let's hope not the worst as well) bits from previous P'dox gamaes.

It would be great if they would borrow the best bits from Gal. civ. 2 too...

 

[unmerged(6777)]

As long as the AI doesn't have to cheat to keep up, all is well.

Of course that's easier said then done. To keep up the AI must know to promote officials fast, not mint unless absolutely necessary, manage their armies in war and their economy both in war and peace, anticipate, judge size, make profitable peaces, colonize fast, convert, change slider settings and now bribe cardinals, juggle national ideas, cultures, hire leaders and so forth. What a mess.

I imagine the AI will not be able to do 1/2 of this. Because in EUII it does only 0/2 of it. It doesn't even keep up if it cheats.

A certain amount of AI cheating is pretty much inevitable because AI cheats are just about the only way to avoid sys requirements that would make even a Blue Gene look underpowered. The trick is to make the cheats as "un-noticable" as possible, and as inobtrusive as possible.

 

[Rotten Venetic]

Drat. Well, as long as you don't allow the AI to keep monster armies and you don't allow it more freedom in diplomacy (just make it more active instead ) than the player(s) I guess I can live with a cheating AI.

 

[unmerged(42223)]

Well working away albeit mayhap in my own little corner these last 18 months with HOI2 1.3, with what is now the third generation 30 year campaign battle mod. Now named (still being polished and is unpublished) Risk Battle Mod, though perhaps misunderstood from its earlier predecessors is an fine example how a Paradox game AI can work.

I would say, just keep exposing as many commands as possible. As what is in HOI2 the misc. file and what can also be addressed in the defaults; Air_Ground, Air_Naval, Air_Strategic, Air_Supremacy, default itself and its mirror, minor_default for example.

It is the plenitude of 'exposed' parameters with goodly explanations. This plenitude of files like, misc.txt (the best of them all) building_costs, diplo_costs, resource_values, province.csv, modifiers_csv (for units, this is quite brilliant) etc. that make building a fine AI work.

Why, am I including the province.csv and other units modifier files? Because the set and setting is a great importance for the AI as the player. Without an good economy, there can be no war war-machine worthy of the name for instance. And if the AI gets stuck in some dead-end on the map, because of VP, terrain bonuses, that is just as troublesome as any other AI factor affecting game play.

Check out what I say will work in Risk Battle Mod so far as concerns the AI and one might be pleasantly surprised. I post pictures for proof. Remembering I use NO events whatsoever, except the vanilla 'change capitol' or the like. And I use only ONE AI file (the defaults carefully crafted ) for ALL countries. I deleted all other AI files and events or archived them on another computer.

Just another viewpoint. And some may say, well that is fine for a battle mod, yes but I say, make it work well first as a battle mod, then add very sparingly those albeit precious, scenario making events.

 

[Rotten Venetic]

There could be pre-defined battle plans the AI could refer to, sorted by phases of conflict.

For example, a strong nation at the start of war could choose between a broad front tactic where they storm all provinces they can effectively gain control of or a narrow front tactic where they penetrate deep into enemy territory with the goal of elliminating enemy reinforcementsa and occupying the capital before taking care of the rest.

If losing, a nation could resort to spamming peace offers, desperation tactics, last-ground tactics (where you group your armies in a few provinces and counter-attack when you can), guerilla (harassment; siege-and-run, etc).

A winning nation, depending on how it started, could go for the throat (take the capital) or for the hands (obliterate the enemy's armies before further progress).

If EUIII is so innovative, why not have separate files for the AI:

*exploration plans
*war waging plans
*economy plans
*trade plans
*colonization plans
*diplomatic objectives

etc.

And the nation's AI has all those it should know of included like libraries in c++ and can refer to the one it prefers.

To make it easier, the AI needn't have references but only choose through AI-only events what to move where and how much to spend on what.

E.G. when declaring a war, the AI gets an event to choose which form of attack it should apply. When warscore reaches certain levels, or time passes, there is an event to change battle plan.

Or, Spain (or why not Bremen?) discovers the Carraibean provinces. First the lesser, than the greater Antilles. With each new province that they can send a settler to, an event fires up: Colonize this one? Continue with what we were doing? Put it on queue?
And another: Exterminate natives? Send an army to keep them from destroying the settlement? Leave them be?

I am aware... we'd need several events for each province. There will be over 1000 land zones... but it's all a question of copy-paste and replace with.