AI Definitely NOT Cheating

[stevieji]

As the devs are always telling us - the AI doesn't cheat - so what could possibly explain this couple of little niggles from my early Hansa game?

1. Denmark forging a claim on my capital. They are adjacent to the same water tile, but my problem is that whenever I find myself adjacent to a minor's capital it's impossible to fabricate a claim, unless the capital is their only province. Personally I find this mechanic quite annoying, but my point is, if that's how it is for the player, surely it should be the same for the AI.

2. You will probably find, as I do, that it's extremely difficult to make alliances whilst at war. Not impossible, perhaps, if you are fighting a defensive war - but if it's an offensive war, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the target of your overtures always have negative 1000 - "fighting an offensive war"? So I'm halfway through a small defensive war against Luneburg and Brunswick, when Austria suddenly allies with Brunswick -the aggressor - and joins the war against me. I managed to escape with a white peace, just as Austria's stack appeared on my border, but what's going on here?

These are just two examples from my current game where the AI is behaving in ways that would be impossible for the human player - I'm sure many people will have many more examples. If it isn't cheating (which, as I say, I'm sure it isn't) perhaps the AI is making some kind of subtle use of game mechanics which are above and beyond my level of understanding - but I find this hard to believe, as the AI seems to be quite stupid much of the time.

Any other examples of this phenomenon, or possible explanations for the specifics outlined above?

 

[eliaspays]

1. Completely normal, your capital is isolated so DAN can fab claims on it.
2. I have no idea what is happening here.

 

[paspa]

You can fabricate a claim on a capital if it has no neighbouring friendly provinces.

The alliance mechanics are a bit iffy, but I *think* it all comes down to the relationship between the potential ally and who you are fighting. I'm guessing that Austria didn't like you.

 

[Thesian]

1. Denmark forging a claim on my capital. They are adjacent to the same water tile, but my problem is that whenever I find myself adjacent to a minor's capital it's impossible to fabricate a claim, unless the capital is their only province. Personally I find this mechanic quite annoying, but my point is, if that's how it is for the player, surely it should be the same for the AI.

And it is. Everbody can fabricate a claim on an isolated capital, i.e. a capital not sharing a land border with another province of it's nation.

2. You will probably find, as I do, that it's extremely difficult to make alliances whilst at war. Not impossible, perhaps, if you are fighting a defensive war - but if it's an offensive war, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the target of your overtures always have negative 1000 - "fighting an offensive war"? So I'm halfway through a small defensive war against Luneburg and Brunswick, when Austria suddenly allies with Brunswick -the aggressor - and joins the war against me. I managed to escape with a white peace, just as Austria's stack appeared on my border, but what's going on here?

That does sound less like an AI cheat, but a bug, if all is as you reportet here. Not only should the AI never forge an alliance with the aggressor (unless it already is in the same war and the alliance broke somehow), but furthermore an AI emperor will always have a -1000 modifier towards joining his HRE-allies' offensive war against another HRE member, unless that member is their rival.

 

[KrupPato]

2. You will probably find, as I do, that it's extremely difficult to make alliances whilst at war. Not impossible, perhaps, if you are fighting a defensive war - but if it's an offensive war, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the target of your overtures always have negative 1000 - "fighting an offensive war"? So I'm halfway through a small defensive war against Luneburg and Brunswick, when Austria suddenly allies with Brunswick -the aggressor - and joins the war against me. I managed to escape with a white peace, just as Austria's stack appeared on my border, but what's going on here?

If YOU are in a offensive war YOU have the -1000 negative with another country, not another country with you. So, in your example, Brunswick has -1000 vs Austria, Austria doesn't have the -1000 vs Brunswick.

 

[LordQ]

I believe it's only a -150 to alliance in an offensive war if the defender is a rival.

 

[clockworkBabbag]

1. Denmark forging a claim on my capital. They are adjacent to the same water tile, but my problem is that whenever I find myself adjacent to a minor's capital it's impossible to fabricate a claim, unless the capital is their only province. Personally I find this mechanic quite annoying, but my point is, if that's how it is for the player, surely it should be the same for the AI.

Not quite. You can forge a claim on a capital if it's isolated, even if it's not the only province. Without a screenshot, it's hard to give an answer why Denmark could make a claim. Chances are it isn't cheating, because again, the AI doesn't cheat - or at least they shouldn't. If the AI is ever actually breaking the rules in ways the devs haven't publicly admitted, it's far more likely to be a bug than intentional cheating.

2. You will probably find, as I do, that it's extremely difficult to make alliances whilst at war. Not impossible, perhaps, if you are fighting a defensive war - but if it's an offensive war, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the target of your overtures always have negative 1000 - "fighting an offensive war"? So I'm halfway through a small defensive war against Luneburg and Brunswick, when Austria suddenly allies with Brunswick -the aggressor - and joins the war against me. I managed to escape with a white peace, just as Austria's stack appeared on my border, but what's going on here?

Possibly a bug, possibly Austria proposing an alliance (I don't think there's any reason you can't offer an alliance to someone in an offensive war, although I have no idea if the AI would do that).

 

[lymond]

I don't know about #1, but I've seen #2 happen more than once and it has perturbed and perplexed me. You wouldn't like me when perturbed and perplexed.

 

[RyanX]

I don't know about #1, but I've seen #2 happen more than once and it has perturbed and perplexed me. You wouldn't like me when perturbed and perplexed.

I think it's the same principle when you can offer alliances to AI nations in aggressive wars, but the AI won't accept your proposal if you are in one. So Austria can totally propose an alliance to Luneburg and then get called in (though they totally shouldn't because the emperor doesn't join HRE aggressive wars), but Luneburg can't propose one to Austria.

 

[stevieji]

Ok - I didn't know that about isolated capital - I knew there had to be a reasonable explanation. It might sound like I'm just being sarcastic, but I genuinely don't believe the AI is 'cheating' as such, just that it's constantly doing stuff that appear to be impossible. More often than not I'm sure it's because of some arcane aspect of game mechanics that I'm not aware of.

So in my second example, it seems that Austria randomly allied with Brunswick and was then called in? Ok, I'll buy that, but it really shouldn't happen - I think I preferred it when there was a time limit on calling in allies - as it stands the diplomacy screen for DOW is a bit approximate, to say the least.

Probably I'm just a bit frustrated with the game in general - just abandoned my 4th attempt at Hansa and really struggling to find a game that's both challenging and do-able. Most of the appealing challenges are in and around the HRE, but it's just getting more and more difficult. I have in the past managed to create Italy from Milan and Germany from Brandenburg, but finding it impossible now.

 

[stevieji]

I think it's the same principle when you can offer alliances to AI nations in aggressive wars, but the AI won't accept your proposal if you are in one. So Austria can totally propose an alliance to Luneburg and then get called in (though they totally shouldn't because the emperor doesn't join HRE aggressive wars), but Luneburg can't propose one to Austria.

But the emperor can join wars with it's allies, regardless, I think.

 

[RyanX]

But the emperor can join wars with it's allies, regardless, I think.

Only if the war target is a country outside the HRE. The emperor will never join an offensive war against a prince.

 

[Zelius]

Does Austria hate you?

And, are you sure they didn't PU / vassalise Brunswick?

 

[stevieji]

Only if the war target is a country outside the HRE. The emperor will never join an offensive war against a prince.

Well if that's the case, what I'm describing simply can't have happened. Must have been an acid flashback, because the only thing I know for sure is that the AI does not cheat.

 

[stevieji]

Does Austria hate you?

And, are you sure they didn't PU / vassalise Brunswick?

No, I don't think they hated me - they certainly didn't like me very much - because of a couple of 'illegal' province acquisitions, but I was improving relations to the max.

No, definitely an alliance, swiftly followed by DOW.

 

[Zelius]

Only if the war target is a country outside the HRE. The emperor will never join an offensive war against a prince.

.... Nope.

Well if that's the case, what I'm describing simply can't have happened. Must have been an acid flashback, because the only thing I know for sure is that the AI does not cheat.

Congrats, your sanity survived your experiment into the effects of psychoactive drugs intact:

HRE prince Bavaria.

Austria's rival Bohemia.

Austria wasn't your Enemy, by any chance? Not sure what the relationship is with other attitudes.
Edit: OK, maybe something else....? Modifier for unlawful territory? Who knows.

 

[stevieji]

Austria wasn't your Enemy, by any chance? Not sure what the relationship is with other attitudes.
Edit: OK, maybe something else....? Modifier for unlawful territory? Who knows.

Sorry I don't have any useful screenshots to offer.

No, Austria certainly wasn't my Enemy.

As you rightly say - "Who knows?" - which is kind of my point.

 

[birincikalite]

AI cheats and I don't see which dev is that denying it.

 

[ArtayOfficial]

One time I didn't play in Ironman mode. My 20k army(10 Inf., 2 Cav., 8 Art.) vs Austrian 16k army.
Austria: No leader, Negative modifier from terrain, lower discipline, lower tech.
I(as Neapol): 4 3 4 1 leader, no modifiers, 120% discipline, better military tech
Who win? Austria. Austria is Lucky Nation, you say? Nope, I disabled lucky nations. Then tell me. Where's sense?

 

[Zelius]

One time I didn't play in Ironman mode. My 20k army(10 Inf., 2 Cav., 8 Art.) vs Austrian 16k army.
Austria: No leader, Negative modifier from terrain, lower discipline, lower tech.
I(as Neapol): 4 3 4 1 leader, no modifiers, 120% discipline, better military tech
Who win? Austria. Austria is Lucky Nation, you say? Nope, I disabled lucky nations. Then tell me. Where's sense?

Step 2: Do similar battles n number of times under the same conditions until you observe a difference at p < 0.01, or at least p < 0.05. Make a graph and write a report detailing your methods, then I will try to repeat it. If our results agree, we can maybe formulate a theory together and present it to the community.
- Scientific Method

Seriously, this is basically all observational bias. Lucky nation doesn't affect combat once it has started other than making AI generals better. I, too, have had situations where e.g. AI rolls constant 7-9s while I roll 0-2s, making huge terrain / general modifiers worthless, or AI rolling much higher in shock phases while I roll uselessly high in fire phases etc. But it's just bias, unless someone actually does a real experiment or finds the code that tells us otherwise.